Who raised Jesus from the dead?

[Same Hakeem]

You're being disingenuous. Jesus, in his humanity, recognizing the unique divinity of God the Father does not undermine his own divinity. But there are several instances in the Gospels where Jesus makes it plain that he is, in fact, God incarnate.

John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." This is a direct reference to Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh told Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel: 'I am has sent me to you.'"

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

When he told people that their sins were forgiven, the Pharisees rightly recognized it as a claim to be God because only God can forgive sins, and they accused Jesus of blasphemy.

[Mountain Man]

Did you miss the reference in Mark?

Mark 14:


Jesus' statement is a direct reference to a passage in Daniel 7:

I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.

And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

The Pharisees who decried it as blasphemy clearly understood what Jesus was claiming about himself.

And then there's Matthew 7:


Why would they consider this blasphemy? Because they recognized that only Yahweh had the authority to grant pardon from sin and that Jesus by his actions was equating himself with God.

To claim that Jesus' divinity was a late invention is theologically ignorant.

[Mountain Man]

Your above reasoning is not biblical.

1. Jesus before Abrahsm does not make him God...

Jesus giving himself the title of "I am" is clearly a divine claim, and the people he was addressing clearly understood it as such because they immediately tried to stone him for blasphemy.

2. The father and Jesus being one still does not make Jesus God because Jesus prayed to Father in John 17:21 for the disciples "May they be one in us"

This is the mystery of the trinity. Jesus, though he is God, is a distinct person from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

[Same Hakeem]

Jesus giving himself the title of "I am" is clearly a divine claim, and the people he was addressing clearly understood it as such because they immediately tried to stone him for blasphemy.


This is the mystery of the trinity. Jesus, though he is God, is a distinct person from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus saying "I am" does Not make God because God said to Moses exactly "I am who I am" in Exd 3:14.

Jesus made it clear that "the ONLY TRUE GOD" is the Father in John 17:1-3.

[Mountain Man]

Jesus saying "I am" does Not make God because God said to Moses exactly "I am who I am" in Exd 3:14.

Jesus made it clear that "the ONLY TRUE GOD" is the Father in John 17:1-3.

Look at the reaction of the people Jesus was addressing when he called himself "I am": they tried to stone him because they understood precisely what he was claiming about himself.

And look at John 10:30 where he says quite plainly, "I and the Father are one," and again his listeners tried to stone him because they knew exactly what he was saying. There is no ambiguity here because the Pharisees tell him, "We are not stoning you for any good work but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Matthew 9 and Mark 14, Jesus invokes divine authority and is immediately accused of blasphemy.

The only way to get around these passages is to claim that he was misunderstood, which begs the question of why there is no record of Jesus attempting to correct the misunderstanding, especially when his life was on the line.

[Same Hakeem]

Look at the reaction of the people Jesus was addressing when he called himself "I am": they tried to stone him because they understood precisely what he was claiming about himself.

And look at John 10:30 where he says quite plainly, "I and the Father are one," and again his listeners tried to stone him because they knew exactly what he was saying. There is no ambiguity here because the Pharisees tell him, "We are not stoning you for any good work but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Matthew 9 and Mark 14, Jesus invokes divine authority and is immediately accused of blasphemy.

The only way to get around these passages is to claim that he was misunderstood, which begs the question of why there is no record of Jesus attempting to correct the misunderstanding, especially when his life was on the line.

[Mountain Man]

No, the reaction does not prove that Jesus is God, but it proves that the people understood him to be claiming to be God. And try quoting the entire passage instead of disingenuously cherry picking the bits you think support your argument. What you quote is not the end of Jesus' argument but the set-up:

[Tassman]

To claim that Jesus' divinity was a late invention is theologically ignorant.

The stupendous claim that God was walking among them in the form of Jesus would be front-and-center of ALL the gospels if this was really believed to be the case. But it is not. To get this concept from the synoptic gospels requires reading between the lines and cherry-picked quotes - such as you have been providing. Certainly, by the time one gets to John, c.100 CE, we see Jesus being referred to as God but this is very late. And it not until the fourth century that we get a formalized doctrine of the Holy Trinity as we understand it today. In short, the doctrine of the Trinity evolved over time.

[Same Hakeem]

No, the reaction does not prove that Jesus is God, but it proves that the people understood him to be claiming to be God. And try quoting the entire passage instead of disingenuously cherry picking the bits you think support your argument. What you quote is not the end of Jesus' argument but the set-up:

[Same Hakeem]

No, the reaction does not prove that Jesus is God, but it proves that the people understood him to be claiming to be God. And try quoting the entire passage instead of disingenuously cherry picking the bits you think support your argument. What you quote is not the end of Jesus' argument but the set-up:

[Mountain Man]

No, he didn't correct them. Rather, he setup his argument by pointing out that if it was not blasphemous for David to say of mere humans "you are gods" then it is certainly not blasphemous for Jesus, "whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world" to call himself the Son of God; and then he drives the point home by declaring "that the Father is in me and I am in the Father". And again, the reaction of the people he was addressing (they again tried to seize him in order to execute him) makes it clear that they understood him to be making a divine claim.

[JimL]

No, he didn't correct them. Rather, he setup his argument by pointing out that if it was not blasphemous for David to say of mere humans "you are gods" then it is certainly not blasphemous for Jesus, "whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world" to call himself the Son of God; and then he drives the point home by declaring "that the Father is in me and I am in the Father". And again, the reaction of the people he was addressing (they again tried to seize him in order to execute him) makes it clear that they understood him to be making a divine claim.

Is Jesus in the father, or is the father in Jesus?

[Same Hakeem]

No, he didn't correct them. Rather, he setup his argument by pointing out that if it was not blasphemous for David to say of mere humans "you are gods" then it is certainly not blasphemous for Jesus, "whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world" to call himself the Son of God; and then he drives the point home by declaring "that the Father is in me and I am in the Father". And again, the reaction of the people he was addressing (they again tried to seize him in order to execute him) makes it clear that they understood him to be making a divine claim.

Jesus proved in John 17:21 that being one with the Father does not make Jesus God in nature becsuse Jesus asked the Father for the disciples "may they also be one in us"

Jesus saying "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" does not make Jesus God in nature because Jesus said to the Father in John 17:23 about the disciples "I am in them and you are in me"

[Tassman]

Word was God. And, by 381 CE the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was articulated in its final form by the First Council of Constantinople and became the standard orthodoxy for most Christians.

[Same Hakeem]

Word was God. And, by 381 CE the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was articulated in its final form by the First Council of Constantinople and became the standard orthodoxy for most Christians.

Though John makes Jesus divine, John denies Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be "the only true God" as Jesus addressed the Father in name as "the only true God" in John 17:1-3.