Who raised Jesus from the dead?

[JimL]

does revere him as a holy prophet.

All religions have their idiosyncratic characteristics.

I don't even think that the term messiah in the OT meant what it came to mean in the NT. I think it just meant a King such as David, not a god, or son of god if you will.

[Mountain Man]

Jesus also denies he's god in Mark 10:18 when he said in rebuke to the speaker "why do you call me good, there is none good but God."

Jesus never said he wasn't God. He was challenging the questioner to consider the implications of his statement. It was characteristic of Jesus' teaching style to avoid direct statements but to use rhetorical questions and parables to steer his audience toward the truth.

[Mountain Man]

I quoted you the exact words of Jesus in John 17:1-3. Jesus addressed in John 17:3 specifically the Father as " the only true God"

You're being disingenuous. Jesus, in his humanity, recognizing the unique divinity of God the Father does not undermine his own divinity. But there are several instances in the Gospels where Jesus makes it plain that he is, in fact, God incarnate.

John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." This is a direct reference to Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh told Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel: 'I am has sent me to you.'"

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

When he told people that their sins were forgiven, the Pharisees rightly recognized it as a claim to be God because only God can forgive sins, and they accused Jesus of blasphemy.

[JimL]

Jesus never said he wasn't God. He was challenging the questioner to consider the implications of his statement. It was characteristic of Jesus' teaching style to avoid direct statements but to use rhetorical questions and parables to steer his audience toward the truth.

You could always interpret it that way, but most, particularly because he was only adressing him as a "good teacher" would interpret Jesus' reply as meaning that he is not good in the sense of being god. He also goes on to contradict himself though, telling the questioner if he wants eternal life to go and sell all he has and give it to the poor. But then he tells his disciples, that along with eternal life, whoever follows him will have 100 times as much material things in "this life."
Btw MM, have you sold all you own and given it to the poor?

[Tassman]

I don't even think that the term messiah in the OT meant what it came to mean in the NT. I think it just meant a King such as David, not a god, or son of god if you will.

Indeed. The Christian concept of Jesus as fully-God and fully-Man (as per the doctrine of the hypostatic union) would have been as blasphemous to the Jews as it is to Islam.

[Mountain Man]

You could always interpret it that way, but most, particularly because he was only adressing him as a "good teacher" would interpret Jesus' reply as meaning that he is not good in the sense of being god. He also goes on to contradict himself though, telling the questioner if he wants eternal life to go and sell all he has and give it to the poor. But then he tells his disciples, that along with eternal life, whoever follows him will have 100 times as much material things in "this life."
Btw MM, have you sold all you own and given it to the poor?

If Jesus was claiming to not be God then you would expect him to have said, "Do not call me good, for there is no one good but God." But Jesus didn't address the matter directly, instead leaving it an open question, which is consistent with his teaching style.

What verse are you referencing where you think Jesus is telling his disciples that whoever follows him will have 100x more material possessions on earth?

And to answer your question, no, I have not sold everything I own and given it to the poor, but I am not what could be characterized as wealthy, and furthermore, this is not something that is generally commanded in scripture. Even Jesus didn't tell every wealthy person he met to sell all their possessions.

[Mountain Man]

Indeed. The Christian concept of Jesus as fully-God and fully-Man (as per the doctrine of the hypostatic union) would have been as blasphemous to the Jews as it is to Islam.

Yes, and that's why the Jews accused him of blasphemy when he equated himself with God.

[JimL]

If Jesus was claiming to not be God then you would expect him to have said, "Do not call me good, for there is no one good but God." But Jesus didn't address the matter directly, instead leaving it an open question, which is consistent with his teaching style.

And why would god leave it an open question as to whether he is god or not?

What verse are you referencing where you think Jesus is telling his disciples that whoever follows him will have 100x more material possessions on earth?

Mark 10:29-30

And to answer your question, no, I have not sold everything I own and given it to the poor, but I am not what could be characterized as wealthy, and furthermore, this is not something that is generally commanded in scripture. Even Jesus didn't tell every wealthy person he met to sell all their possessions.

He only needed say it once for it to mean the same thing to everyone.

[Tassman]

Yes, and that's why the Jews accused him of blasphemy when he equated himself with God.

Jesus didn't refer to himself as God during his own lifetime - that came later. And yes, as far as the Jews and Muslims are concerned, this is blasphemy.

[Mountain Man]

Jesus didn't refer to himself as God during his own lifetime - that came later.

False. As I posted earlier:

John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." This is a direct reference to Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh told Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel: 'I am has sent me to you.'"

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

When he told people that their sins were forgiven, the Pharisees rightly recognized it as a claim to be God because only God can forgive sins, and they accused Jesus of blasphemy.

And there's this:

Source: Christianity.com

Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: " 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?' 'I am,' said Jesus. 'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven' " (Mark 14:61-62 NIV). A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words. Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making an overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14). In doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the Universe but also prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him. Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory. To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64-65).

https://www.christianity.com/jesus/i...o-be-god.htmlj

© Copyright Original Source

So, yes, Jesus did claim to be God during his lifetime and with his own words.

[JimL]

False. As I posted earlier:

John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." This is a direct reference to Exodus 3:14 where Yahweh told Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel: 'I am has sent me to you.'"

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

When he told people that their sins were forgiven, the Pharisees rightly recognized it as a claim to be God because only God can forgive sins, and they accused Jesus of blasphemy.

And there's this:

Source: Christianity.com

Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: " 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?' 'I am,' said Jesus. 'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven' " (Mark 14:61-62 NIV). A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words. Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making an overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14). In doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the Universe but also prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him. Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory. To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64-65).

https://www.christianity.com/jesus/i...o-be-god.htmlj

© Copyright Original Source

So, yes, Jesus did claim to be God during his lifetime and with his own words.

Well, at most, all we know is that the authors, some 40 or more years after the supposed events took place, claim that Jesus said the things they say he said. So much for that!

[Mountain Man]

And why would god leave it an open question as to whether he is god or not?

Mark 10:29-30

He only needed say it once for it to mean the same thing to everyone.

Why would he leave it an open question? Because he only wanted those who diligently sought the truth to find it. Matthew 13:


You mention the passage in Mark, but it doesn't say what you think it says:

"Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

This is where you would do well to consult a good Bible commentary. My ESV Study Bible says, "The person who leaves house, lands, and family for Jesus' sake and for the gospel can expect now in this life to enjoy fellowship with other believers. He will find a welcome in the houses and lands of Christian friends. But in this life these blessings will be mixed with persecutions. The future will yield an even better reward: eternal life."

As for your parting shot, the burden is yours, then, to prove that Jesus intended it as a command to all people for all time.

[Mountain Man]

Well, at most, all we know is that the authors, some 40 or more years after the supposed events took place, claim that Jesus said the things they say he said. So much for that!

Classic stupid atheist trick: Claim that the Bible is reliable on every point that supports your position, and unreliable on every point that refutes it.

[JimL]

Classic stupid atheist trick: Claim that the Bible is reliable on every point that supports your position, and unreliable on every point that refutes it.

I don't claim the bible is reliable on any point, so what are you talking about.

[Tassman]

So, yes, Jesus did claim to be God during his lifetime and with his own words.