Originally posted by Starlight
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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So Easy To Be An Atheist!
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Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat just does not make sense, what prejudices of the day?
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWhat? By "authority" do you just mean "power to punish"? Or is there something else you mean by that word?
In my vocabulary, "authority" is something voluntarily granted to a person by society (e.g. democratically elected politicians have authority to govern), if it not granted voluntarily it is merely "power" / "dictatorship" not "authority". So the phrase "inherent authority" is oxymoronic to me - you can't have inherent authority.
Yawn. I see zero reason whatsoever to accept this claim on your part as true. It's about as plausible and uninteresting as saying my cat defines right and wrong. If you want to say "I seer, personally follow God's rules as my definition of right and wrong", sure. And I regard that roughly the same way I would regard "I seer, personally flip a coin before taking an action to decide what is right and wrong".
Reality would. By learning about the world through observation and experience, and by empirical study and scientific research, we can observe and measure how our actions affect ourselves and others in society. We can come to understand how different actions affect people's freedom, happiness, well-being etc.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWell, for one, the prejudice against homosexuals, which even today still exists in some quarters. At other times, the prejudice against black people that led to various forms of apartheid or anti-miscegenation laws, or antisemitism or the emancipation of women's rights etc etc...ALL justified by appeals to scripture.
Except the Biblical prohibition against homosexuality goes back close to three thousand years. So it has nothing to do with the prejudices of the day...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI said most things, and most the moral imperatives in the New Testament are quite clear.
Ok, then why bring it in?
Correct, but changing a worldview is much more difficult than me (as an agnostic back then) deciding that promiscuity was not immoral. So the case of the theist and non-theists are not analogous. The believer has a moral an objective standard that he attempts to live up to, the atheist only has whatever he decides is right. And if what he thinks is right conflicts with his present desire for whatever, why not just change what he believes is right thereby removing the conflict? It would be perfectly rational do do so.
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Originally posted by crepuscule View PostMost laws in the OT are also quite clear. Do you follow them?
Yes I know perfectly well what relativism is, and I am comparing theism with non-theism.
Most importantly, I find it hard to believe you think moral subjectivists can change their moral code on a dime. Back in the days when you were an agnostic, did you truly believe you could will yourself overnight into believing, say, theft or killing was morally permissible?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes, those that have been brought over in the New Covenant that Christ instituted.Yes I know perfectly well what relativism is, and I am comparing theism with non-theism.Except when I was a relativist I did change some moral views rather quickly, as I explained. And yes, I actually did will myself into believing that breaking some laws was perfectly acceptable. Like selling weed or acid.
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Sure, some laws may in fact be relative, like all men journeying to Jerusalem three times a year, or the prohibition against wearing blended fibers. The moral laws that transcend both Testaments would be in the non-relative category.
The argument is about the ease with which one may change a moral view. I'm a theist, so I approach it from that position, let the moral realist defend his own position.
theft or killing was morally permissible? 'Cause I don't think I could ever do that.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostTass you said:Interesting how god's moral laws seem to coincide with the social prejudices of the day.
Except the Biblical prohibition against homosexuality goes back close to three thousand years. So it has nothing to do with the prejudices of the day...
Originally posted by seer View PostYes, those that have been brought over in the New Covenant that Christ instituted.Last edited by Tassman; 08-22-2018, 12:06 AM.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostCome now! There are hundreds of prohibitions in Leviticus and elsewhere in the OT that you no longer follow. You merely select those that coincide with your personal prejudices...prejudices not even shared by the majority of people in our society.
Where is the list of these New Covenant Laws that Christ instituted...or do we have to rely on your interpretation of scripture for that?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostSure, some laws may in fact be relative, like all men journeying to Jerusalem three times a year, or the prohibition against wearing blended fibers. The moral laws that transcend both Testaments would be in the non-relative category.
But it does make me wonder if you really believe it was morally right thousands of years ago to for example stone witches to death.
The argument is about the ease with which one may change a moral view. I'm a theist, so I approach it from that position, let the moral realist defend his own position.
What you propose is substituting a moral view for another for no other reason than that it's more convenient or easier to follow. I think that's a very poor reason to change one's moral code. That you have done so says more about you than about moral subjectivism.
I just gave you two examples of things I believed were immoral, to believing that they were morally acceptable in a rather quick fashion. It doesn't have to be about killing or stealing.
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Originally posted by crepuscule View PostAnd here's me thinking it was a central Christian tenet that all God's moral laws were absolute.
But it does make me wonder if you really believe it was morally right thousands of years ago to for example stone witches to death.
No, you were arguing from a (straw-mannish) atheist position, namely that -given moral subjectivism- it should be easy to change one's personal moral view.
What you propose is substituting a moral view for another for no other reason than that it's more convenient or easier to follow. I think that's a very poor reason to change one's moral code. That you have done so says more about you than about moral subjectivism.
And I have given you examples or moral rules a subjectivist is unlikely to change, and also of rules an objectivist does change.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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You think 'atheist' is a badge of shame? Fascinating.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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