Atheism irrefutable.

[37818]

An uncaused cause must be infinite and eternal.

What is uncaused is eternal. But a cause is still temporal to be a cause. Do you deny the other finite and temporal acts of God? ". . . the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: . . . " God is infinite and omnipresent! The ex nihilo creation was by His infinite power. But the creation was a finite and temporal act. The evidence being our known universe is finite and temporal having a beginning (Genesis 1:1).

Now of whom is it written to be the sole cause of all things in John 1:3 (Colossians 1:15-18)? And what does it repeat about Him in John 1:2? And the term "Father" is not used in John 1:2, but is used of the invisible God in John 1:18, identifying who walked visibly in the that garden as God. And this was true of Son prior to His incarnation (John 1:14).

[JimL]

What is uncaused is eternal. But a cause is still temporal to be a cause. Do you deny the other finite and temporal acts of God? ". . . the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: . . . " God is infinite and omnipresent! The ex nihilo creation was by His infinite power. But the creation was a finite and temporal act. The evidence being our known universe is finite and temporal having a beginning (Genesis 1:1).

If the effect is in the cause (and vice versa) then the former is eternal with respect to the latter.

Now of whom is it written to be the sole cause of all things in John 1:3 (Colossians 1:15-18)? And what does it repeat about Him in John 1:2? And the term "Father" is not used in John 1:2, but is used of the invisible God in John 1:18, identifying who walked visibly in the that garden as God. And this was true of Son prior to His incarnation (John 1:14).

We are discussing philosophical notions, not your religious beliefs.

[Sparko]

Ok. Based on what I had explained, what would it tell you about an uncaused cause?
Uncaused is eternal. And a cause is . . .

You did not answer me.

You said, "A cause in order to be a cause must be finite and temporal."

God is the cause of the Universe and is not finite or temporal. Correct?

[37818]

If the effect is in the cause (and vice versa) then the former is eternal with respect to the latter.

An effect is not the same as the cause.

We are discussing philosophical notions, not your religious beliefs.

As such, uncaused existence is not the same thing as uncaused cause. An effect is not the same thing as the cause.

John 1:1-3 has a philosophical elements. One who is "with God" is not God, yet that one "was God." And this prior to His incarnation which He Himself caused (John 1:2-3, 14). The incarnation did not make Him cease being both with God and God. What changed was how He was "with God." That did not change what John 1:3 said about Him who became a man (John 1:9-10, 14).

[JimL]

An effect is not the same as the cause.

As such, uncaused existence is not the same thing as uncaused cause. An effect is not the same thing as the cause.

John 1:1-3 has a philosophical elements. One who is "with God" is not God, yet that one "was God." And this prior to His incarnation which He Himself caused (John 1:2-3, 14). The incarnation did not make Him cease being both with God and God. What changed was how He was "with God." That did not change what John 1:3 said about Him who became a man (John 1:9-10, 14).

Causes and effects are of one and the same substance. The universe is material and so are all the effects that arise within it.

[crepuscule]

Explain what you mean by an atemporal infinite cause

Rather self-explanatory, innit? Atemporal means independent of or unaffected by time; timeless. Infinite is without limits.

For example, the very concept of an uncaused cause is both eternal and temporal.

not eternal.

What is uncaused is eternal.

Not necessarily. An uncaused thing -even a cause- could cease to exist = temporal and not eternal.

As a cause is finite and temporal.

You keep on maintaining this without support. But even if it were true it would go for an uncaused cause too.

Atemporal and temporal are two different things as well, so infinite and finite are two different things. So an atemporal infinite cause would be multiple things. Unless said cause did not cause anything finite and temporal.

Partly tautologically true, partly non sequiturial gibberish. ? Why not? It would still be both atemporal and infinite, which is 'multiple things'.

[crepuscule]

Here Bible is talking about what caused the universe - that cannot be finite and temporal because that would make the cause part of the effect. An uncaused cause must be infinite and eternal.

any cause (therefore including an eventual uncaused first cause) must be finite and temporal.

And btw imo an uncaused cause need neither be infinite nor eternal; it could cease to exist.

[37818]

You did not answer me.

You did not like the answer.

God is the cause of the Universe and is not finite or temporal. Correct?

Is rhe man Jesus who is now eternally a man finite and temporal?

[Sparko]

You did not like the answer.

Is rhe man Jesus who is now eternally a man finite and temporal?

An answer doesn't have a question mark at the end. Just sayin'

Your initial claim was wrong.

But hey, your entire thread is mostly irrational nonsense so I will just bow out.

[Teallaura]

What is uncaused is eternal. But a cause is still temporal to be a cause. Do you deny the other finite and temporal acts of God? ". . . the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: . . . " God is infinite and omnipresent! The ex nihilo creation was by His infinite power. But the creation was a finite and temporal act. The evidence being our known universe is finite and temporal having a beginning (Genesis 1:1).

Now of whom is it written to be the sole cause of all things in John 1:3 (Colossians 1:15-18)? And what does it repeat about Him in John 1:2? And the term "Father" is not used in John 1:2, but is used of the invisible God in John 1:18, identifying who walked visibly in the that garden as God. And this was true of Son prior to His incarnation (John 1:14).

Okay, at this point you have lost all contact with the argument - my argument is simply that your argument is NOT COMPELLING to an atheist, along with being circular. Whether I personally accept the conclusion (I do) doesn't matter AT ALL. What matters is that you cannot use this silly argument to convince anyone who isn't ALREADY convinced of the conclusion.

Which makes the argument superfluous as well as circular.

You cannot prove the presumption - without that, you cannot make this argument compelling to atheists - who are the only folks demanding proof of God's existence. So you're either arguing for the fun of it - with no actual intent to convince - or you're arguing so poorly that you cannot convince the target audience.

I'd go with Option Two at this point if I were you....

[Teallaura]

any cause (therefore including an eventual uncaused first cause) must be finite and temporal.

And btw imo an uncaused cause need neither be infinite nor eternal; it could cease to exist.

Um, no, his argument is the opposite.

I'm only here for the popcorn - the argument he presented will only work for those of us who already accept the existence of God and he cannot see that.



ETA: Never mind, he either changed it or I misunderstood (normally I'd assume the latter but to be fair, he's arguing with four people at once).

[37818]

not eternal.

Not necessarily. An uncaused thing -even a cause- could cease to exist = temporal and not eternal.

You keep on maintaining this without support. But even if it were true it would go for an uncaused cause too.

Partly tautologically true, partly non sequiturial gibberish. ? Why not? It would still be both atemporal and infinite, which is 'multiple things'.

A cause to be a cause is finite and temporal. An atemporal infinite cause in order to cause a thing in time would have to also be temporal.

Infinite would have to be modulated to finite to cause something finite.

An uncaused cause is both eternal and finite. Eternal in that it would have always been finite and temporal. The eternal Son of God was both not God being "with God" and God being that He "was God." John 1:1-2. And He is the uncaused cause in that anything made was not made apart from Him (John 1:3).

[Teallaura]

A cause to be a cause is finite and temporal. An atemporal infinite cause in order to cause a thing in time would have to also be temporal.

Infinite would have to be modulated to finite to cause something finite.

An uncaused cause is both eternal and finite. Eternal in that it would have always been finite and temporal. The eternal Son of God was both not God being "with God" and God being that He "was God." John 1:1-2. And He is the uncaused cause in that anything made was not made apart from Him (John 1:3).

Okay.... I must have missed the finite part.

[Tassman]

Explain what you mean by an atemporal infinite cause. For example, the very concept of an uncaused cause is both eternal and temporal. What is uncaused is eternal. As a cause is finite and temporal. Atemporal and temporal are two different things as well, so infinite and finite are two different things. So an atemporal infinite cause would be multiple things. Unless said cause did not cause anything finite and temporal.

[37818]

Do you know of an actual non-temporal non-finite effect? As far as I know, finite and temporal effects are caused by a finite and temporal cause.