The More We Evolve, the Less We Need God

[Mountain Man]

I'm further interested in knowing if folks here think that this dynamic is in any way related to the growth of secularism.

[carpedm9587]

Interesting perspective. Alternatively, one might argue that young people today are no longer interested in following rules for the sake of rules. They challenge - they question - they look for things to make sense and be reasonable. "God says so" and "it's in the bible" are no longer satisfactory responses. The same thing happens with children as they grow. A parent who bases their parenting on "because I said so" will find themselves with difficulties when the child enters the age of reason and begins to question why that matters. The parent who enforces positions with physical force (e.g., spanking, etc.) finds themselves in an interesting place when the child outgrows the parent in strength.

Perhaps humanity is moving out of its infancy and adolescence, and beginning to stretch its wings a bit. Infrastructures like the telegraph and telephone networks and the Internet have made dissemination of ideas and information virtually instantaneous. It has made it possible for people to interact and exchange ideas in ways previously unheard of. In that process, it seems to me humanity is moving away from the authoritarian "because I say so" model that churches have been based on for centuries, and more and more people are thinking for themselves and questioning that authority and its grip on them.

[Mountain Man]

Alternatively, one might argue that young people today are no longer interested in following rules for the sake of rules.

This is a rather ignorant understanding of religious beliefs. If people are being taught that they should follow the Bible "just because" then that's another failure of the church.

[carpedm9587]

This is a rather ignorant understanding of religious beliefs. If people are being taught that they should follow the Bible "just because" then that's another failure of the church.

MM, there is little/no doubt in my mind that the root of Christian beliefs is "god says so." Most religions are based on an authoritarian model. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've been told, on this site, that a thing is or is not right/wrong because "it's in the bible" or "god wills it" or "it is the nature of god." God sits at the center, and god "anoints" specific individuals who have authority to teach/preach/enforce the beliefs - moral and otherwise. But I think people are looking for meatier explanations. That simply does not satisfy.

It's why, as a parent, I always had an explanation for the things I asked my children to do, and took the time to explain it. Sometimes I had to ask them to wait (if there was danger), but I always followed up with "why." I wanted them to learn to ask questions, and to reject answers that were rooted in "because I say so." I suspect most young people are likewise growing up less and less satisfied with a dictatorial model for faith.

[Mountain Man]

MM, there is little/no doubt in my mind that the root of Christian beliefs is "god says so."

I was never under the impression that you were anything but ignorant when it comes to your understanding of religion in general and Christianity in particular. There are very strong rational, theological, and philosophical reasons for accepting Christianity that go far beyond "God says so".

But I will say that your discourse here gives me a better understanding of why you're no longer a Christian. If my understanding of Christianity was as poor as yours then I might be tempted to abandon the faith as well, but it brings to my mind the quote that the proper response to bad religion is not no religion but correct religion.

[carpedm9587]

I was never under the impression that you were anything but ignorant when it comes to your understanding of religion in general and Christianity in particular. There are very strong rational, theological, and philosophical reasons for accepting Christianity that go far beyond "God says so".

But I will say that your discourse here gives me a better understanding of why you're no longer a Christian. If my understanding of Christianity was as poor as yours then I might be tempted to abandon the faith as well, but it brings to my mind the quote that the proper response to bad religion is not no religion but correct religion.

OK - so let's test this position of yours. Why is homosexuality morally wrong?

[Rushing Jaws]

I don't think biological evolution is the only form of evolution there is.



Yeah, this one wasn't so hot. If the god notion of god has always been a god of the gaps, then the idea that such a god would be less relevant/necessary follows pretty naturally. The speakers were clear that they were not debating the existence of god, merely the necessity of god in the face of growing knowledge and understanding of our world and our societies. I was fascinated because it is essentially my experience, and my observation of the pattern of history. It also explains the surge of secularism and the retrenchment of religions. "Nones" are now the fastest growing population segment (from a religious perspective).

explanation for anything; but is the Transcendent Cause of all things that have being. The unbelief or ignorance of man does not change that.

[carpedm9587]

explanation for anything; but is the Transcendent Cause of all things that have being. The unbelief or ignorance of man does not change that.

Unless, of course, there actually is no god...

[Tassman]

OK - so let's test this position of yours. Why is homosexuality morally wrong?

Because the bible tells him so! Problem is the bible is interpreted differently by other Christians who accept homosexuality. And there is no way such conflicts can be resolved when different Christians hold absolute beliefs which are mutually exclusive

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-la...d-be-accepted/

[seer]

Because the bible tells him so! Problem is the bible is interpreted differently by other Christians who accept homosexuality. And there is no way such conflicts can be resolved when different Christians hold absolute beliefs which are mutually exclusive.

That is false Tass, "Christians" who don't believe that homosexuality is sin are rejecting Scripture. If you follow the text there is no conflict:

1 Timothy 1:8-11
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexualitymen who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 1:26-28
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

[carpedm9587]

OK - so let's test this position of yours. Why is homosexuality morally wrong?

No response, MM?

[Sparko]

OTOH, "my studies and events in my life" have done the reverse.

correct. And if I am wrong I cease to exist. If you are wrong...ouch.

[Sparko]

Fair enough. My studies and events in my life have led me to feel strongly confident that philosophical naturalism is the correct approach to understanding the universe.

So you are saying you are really bad at understanding the universe, huh?

[Sparko]

I see... so you don't want this thread to be a debate about God's existence. We're just supposed to accept the premise that he doesn't exist and then vacuously pontificate about how long it'll take before man's "mastery" of the universe overrides his need to believe in a "sky daddy".

Whatever.

Yeah, he should have posted his thread in Naturalism 101, where only atheists can post, then he could have all of the back patting he wants.

[Charles]

I think you are right. I would even go one step further and say that the white so called Christian evangelicals who support - among other absurdities - the separation of children from their parents are not only salt that has lost its taste but salt that has started to taste really bad. The problem is not that they are "like the world" the problem is rather that the world is looking at them and seeing that they are even worse than "the world". People will no longer look in that direction for moral guidance because it is so obvious that they wont find it there. '

In other words it is yet another area in which it is true that the more we evolve, the less we need god. Or at least, the less we need people who think they know what god wants and know no limit when they think they enforce his will.