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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Atheist Theist Tension
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostSo, it doesn't bother you that pagan culture has misappropriated a particular holy day and secularized it beyond description.
Originally posted by mossrose View PostBut it disturbs you enough to make a thread about it here that the money of the country you live in has a motto on it that you don't agree with. And you refrain from using that currency to make a point. To whom, I'm not sure.
I do believe our society needs fewer divisive constructs rather than more, so I will/would advocate for the elimination of any I can find.
Originally posted by mossrose View PostIn other words, you want every mention of God, specifically the Christian God, removed from anything and everything, regardless of the reasons why those mentions were in place at the beginning of your country. And you don't want believers to have even the slightest ability at all to declare their faith openly in public.
Originally posted by mossrose View PostWell, I want you to only celebrate Christmas as commemorating the birth of the Saviour, Creator, and Sustainer of the Universe. If you can't do that, I don't want you to celebrate Christmas at all.
But, I won't hold my breath on that one......
Originally posted by mossrose View PostYes, I see.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense, not according to the National Archives: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs
And again, the Constitution does not deal with the source of rights, that was already established by the DoI.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt has also become a cultural holiday - for gift giving and gathering. Christmas is more about "Santa" and "Rudolph" to me than "Jesus" and the dawn of Christianity. I have no problem joining in the festivities - I am not celebrating "Jesus," I am celebrating family and friends."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostYep. I love spending time with my family, and Christmas offers lots of great things: Santa parade to take my nephews to, a big nice meal with family, presents, Christmas trees, time off work, amusing jingle songs about Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer, summer holidays (usefully Christmas is in mid-summer here) etc. Apart from the fact that some of my relatives are religious and so say grace before the meal / any meal, the festival has zero religious content for me.
Why don't you get your own holy day, then, and leave Christmas to the Christians.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostWhy don't you get your own holy day, then, and leave Christmas to the Christians."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostWhy don't you get your own holy day, then, and leave Christmas to the Christians.
Here's a different idea: why don't you (and other Christians) celebrate Christmas as you wish to - and I (and other atheists) will celebrate it as we want to.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell... "atheist" and "holy day" sort of don't go together."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWell... "atheist" and "holy day" sort of don't go together.
Here's a different idea: why don't you (and other Christians) celebrate Christmas as you wish to - and I (and other atheists) will celebrate it as we want to.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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That being said, there is nothing here that actually says anything about "Satan" and the song is basically a celebration of human capability and thought. So I found the lyrics perfectly acceptable.
I'm not sure what the human goats have to do with anything...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostAnd here's an idea: why don't you (and other atheists) get over having "in God we trust" on your money and let other people who believe in God and trust in Him enjoy their cash without trying to make the whole country change to your way of thinking.
You are a smart woman, Mossrose. I suspect (but cannot know) that there is a part of you that recognizes the simple truth of this.
But perhaps I am wrong.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have to admit that I am not well versed in modern "satanism."
That being said, there is nothing here that actually says anything about "Satan" and the song is basically a celebration of human capability and thought. So I found the lyrics perfectly acceptable.
I'm not sure what the human goats have to do with anything..."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs I have noted before - omitting "In god we trust" from our currency does not in any way negate Christian beliefs. Christians can believe as they wish, celebrate as they wish, and the currency does not speak against their beliefs. Atheists can likewise believe as they wish - celebrate as they wish - and the currency does not speak against their beliefs. Everyone can use the same currency, which has been rendered inclusive. Making a statement about god on our currency (trust or not trust) is inherently divisive.
You are a smart woman, Mossrose. I suspect (but cannot know) that there is a part of you that recognizes the simple truth of this.
But perhaps I am wrong.
The only ones making the words on currency a divisive issue are you and the other liberal/atheists who can't stand that the word "God" happens to be in your pocket once in a long while.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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I sang this in Glee Club at Penn State, and my grandfather sang it in high school (Depression era Kansas). I have no idea why it's classified as a Christmas song.
ETA: Had to search for a version which actually includes the last verse:
Last edited by One Bad Pig; 05-30-2018, 08:00 PM.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostWhy don't you get your own holy day, then, and leave Christmas to the Christians.
It is the Christians that may need to get their own holidays.Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-30-2018, 07:57 PM.
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