The Atheist Theist Tension

[firstfloor]

Nonsense, not according to the National Archives: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs

And again, the Constitution does not deal with the source of rights, that was already established by the DoI.

[carpedm9587]

So, it doesn't bother you that pagan culture has misappropriated a particular holy day and secularized it beyond description.

You do know the origin of Christmas to begin with, right? It seems fitting that the process is being reversed.

But it disturbs you enough to make a thread about it here that the money of the country you live in has a motto on it that you don't agree with. And you refrain from using that currency to make a point. To whom, I'm not sure.

Actually - I point out a divisive part of our culture. As for the rest, it does not occupy my thinking all that much. I adjusted to this process years ago, and now do it without much thought. I think I've mentioned several times that this entire issue is getting far more press here than it normally occupies in my kind - just because we are talking about it.

I do believe our society needs fewer divisive constructs rather than more, so I will/would advocate for the elimination of any I can find.

In other words, you want every mention of God, specifically the Christian God, removed from anything and everything, regardless of the reasons why those mentions were in place at the beginning of your country. And you don't want believers to have even the slightest ability at all to declare their faith openly in public.

At no point did I say or think any of those things, so I have no response.

Well, I want you to only celebrate Christmas as commemorating the birth of the Saviour, Creator, and Sustainer of the Universe. If you can't do that, I don't want you to celebrate Christmas at all.

But, I won't hold my breath on that one......

And rightly so, Moss. I am not likely to adjust my choices on the basis of what you want.

Yes, I see.

[carpedm9587]

Nonsense, not according to the National Archives: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs

And again, the Constitution does not deal with the source of rights, that was already established by the DoI.

We will have to agree to disagree. We have three "founding documents,"but only one has legal standing. The Declaration plays its role (as a statement to England of our intention to separate). The Constitution is the document that establishes the framework for our country. The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution. No court of law ever goes to the DOE to determine if a law or practice is appropriate. It is always to the Constitution. It is the authoritative framework ratified by the states. The DOE was written by one man and signed by a few dozen others. It was never ratified as having legal standing, AFAIK.

[Starlight]

It has also become a cultural holiday - for gift giving and gathering. Christmas is more about "Santa" and "Rudolph" to me than "Jesus" and the dawn of Christianity. I have no problem joining in the festivities - I am not celebrating "Jesus," I am celebrating family and friends.

Yep. I love spending time with my family, and Christmas offers lots of great things: Santa parade to take my nephews to, a big nice meal with family, presents, Christmas trees, time off work, amusing jingle songs about Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer, summer holidays (usefully Christmas is in mid-summer here) etc. Apart from the fact that some of my relatives are religious and so say grace before the meal / any meal, the festival has zero religious content for me.

[mossrose]

Yep. I love spending time with my family, and Christmas offers lots of great things: Santa parade to take my nephews to, a big nice meal with family, presents, Christmas trees, time off work, amusing jingle songs about Rudolf the Red Nose Reindeer, summer holidays (usefully Christmas is in mid-summer here) etc. Apart from the fact that some of my relatives are religious and so say grace before the meal / any meal, the festival has zero religious content for me.

Why don't you get your own holy day, then, and leave Christmas to the Christians.

[Starlight]

Why don't you get your own holy day, then, and leave Christmas to the Christians.

You talk a lot of nonsense, don't you? My enjoyment of the holiday doesn't diminish anyone else's ability to enjoy it. Some of my relatives go to church on it and enjoy it as a Christian holiday. Those of us who aren't Christian enjoy it as a secular holiday.

[carpedm9587]

Why don't you get your own holy day, then, and leave Christmas to the Christians.

Well... "atheist" and "holy day" sort of don't go together.

Here's a different idea: why don't you (and other Christians) celebrate Christmas as you wish to - and I (and other atheists) will celebrate it as we want to.

[Starlight]

Well... "atheist" and "holy day" sort of don't go together.

I do kind of enjoy this "satanist" (i.e. atheist and mocking religion) Christmas carol. There does seem to have been some resurgence of the Old Norse "religion" (i.e. atheist again) in parts of Scandinavia.

[mossrose]

Well... "atheist" and "holy day" sort of don't go together.

Here's a different idea: why don't you (and other Christians) celebrate Christmas as you wish to - and I (and other atheists) will celebrate it as we want to.

And here's an idea: why don't you (and other atheists) get over having "in God we trust" on your money and let other people who believe in God and trust in Him enjoy their cash without trying to make the whole country change to your way of thinking.

[carpedm9587]

I do kind of enjoy this "satanist" (i.e. atheist and mocking religion) Christmas carol. There does seem to have been some resurgence of the Old Norse "religion" (i.e. atheist again) in parts of Scandinavia.

I have to admit that I am not well versed in modern "satanism." My experience of it, which aligns with the online definitions I find, is that it is an anti-Christian movement that basically substitutes Satan for the Christian god and disparages Christianity. That is not really in my wheelhouse.

That being said, there is nothing here that actually says anything about "Satan" and the song is basically a celebration of human capability and thought. So I found the lyrics perfectly acceptable.

I'm not sure what the human goats have to do with anything...

[carpedm9587]

And here's an idea: why don't you (and other atheists) get over having "in God we trust" on your money and let other people who believe in God and trust in Him enjoy their cash without trying to make the whole country change to your way of thinking.

As I have noted before - omitting "In god we trust" from our currency does not in any way negate Christian beliefs. Christians can believe as they wish, celebrate as they wish, and the currency does not speak against their beliefs. Atheists can likewise believe as they wish - celebrate as they wish - and the currency does not speak against their beliefs. Everyone can use the same currency, which has been rendered inclusive. Making a statement about god on our currency (trust or not trust) is inherently divisive.

You are a smart woman, Mossrose. I suspect (but cannot know) that there is a part of you that recognizes the simple truth of this.

But perhaps I am wrong.

[Starlight]

I have to admit that I am not well versed in modern "satanism."

It's atheists having a giggle.

That being said, there is nothing here that actually says anything about "Satan" and the song is basically a celebration of human capability and thought. So I found the lyrics perfectly acceptable.

Yes. I enjoy the lyrics.

I'm not sure what the human goats have to do with anything...

A generic throw-back to paganism I guess. You have to ask yourself though: What's not improved by human goats?

[mossrose]

As I have noted before - omitting "In god we trust" from our currency does not in any way negate Christian beliefs. Christians can believe as they wish, celebrate as they wish, and the currency does not speak against their beliefs. Atheists can likewise believe as they wish - celebrate as they wish - and the currency does not speak against their beliefs. Everyone can use the same currency, which has been rendered inclusive. Making a statement about god on our currency (trust or not trust) is inherently divisive.

You are a smart woman, Mossrose. I suspect (but cannot know) that there is a part of you that recognizes the simple truth of this.

But perhaps I am wrong.

You are wrong only in the sense that I really don't care about what is and what is not on currency. It is a silly thing to even be talking about. I tried in this thread to make you see that, and you don't seem to get it.

The only ones making the words on currency a divisive issue are you and the other liberal/atheists who can't stand that the word "God" happens to be in your pocket once in a long while.

[One Bad Pig]

I do kind of enjoy this "satanist" (i.e. atheist and mocking religion) Christmas carol. There does seem to have been some resurgence of the Old Norse "religion" (i.e. atheist again) in parts of Scandinavia.

You might enjoy this:

I sang this in Glee Club at Penn State, and my grandfather sang it in high school (Depression era Kansas). I have no idea why it's classified as a Christmas song.

ETA: Had to search for a version which actually includes the last verse:

[shunyadragon]

Why don't you get your own holy day, then, and leave Christmas to the Christians.

Actually Christianity adopted a pagan holiday and called to Christian. In reality all of the pagans over the millennia celebrated the winter solstice in different ways and many of the symbols used by Christians were pagan symbols. Many people over millennia and today celebrate Christmas in many different ways with no religious significance.

It is the Christians that may need to get their own holidays.