Originally posted by Mountain Man
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Nobody Dies for a Lie
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Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostLooks like we're talking about different ideas here.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI think you're vastly over-inflating the number of charlatans out there, and refusing to consider the possibility that those who are out there might be aping something real.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI see that I somehow got your position backwards. I apologize.
(and if the wink did not give it away - I'm being facetious. We're human. Sometimes we just misunderstand. No problem.)
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'd say that religions tend to fragment over time because humans. Countries tend to fragment over time too, absent force (often of arms) holding them together.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGot some examples?
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe flood, yes - though it seems an odd story to be so widespread; a creation story, yes; the sacrificial lamb, not so much; with the last category, you're verging on Christ-myth.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThen why even bother asserting your innocence? I don't want to see you as someone who plays fast and loose with definitions, but I keep seeing you do it.
But that's OK. According to my wife, I'm still about 30 years away from finishing puberty, and I'm about to turn 60.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIt doesn't prove anything; it shows that one is not like the others, so it is perhaps not legitimate to lump it in with all the rest.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostChristianity is not a "western" religion; western civilization is built on it, not the other way around. I also contest the assertion that monotheism emerged from anything; it is built, AFAICS, on speculation, mostly done by those who have rejected it.
I also did not say that "monotheism" emerged "from" something (i.e., as in it is an evolutionary development). As far as I know, monotheism is first introduced by the emerging Judaic community and is a radical departure from other religious forms of the time. I know of no other "single-god" religions that predate it. It does adopt many themes from other religions, but it also has a unique form compared to other religions in the 2nd and 1st millenia BCE. As it expands, the model continuously displaces polytheisms in pretty much all contexts.Last edited by carpedm9587; 04-18-2018, 04:09 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSo you can't provide a reasonable, serious, non-stupid, can't-be-refuted-in-under-20-seconds argument for Christian theism either.
Didn't even take five seconds. Only an idiot would claim they can refute the Resurrection in 20 seconds or less.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostPeople will most definitely die for a lie if they don't know it is a lie and believe it to be true. But if they do know it is a lie (especially if they made the lie themselves) then they won't die for it if they can help it. The apostles had an easy out. If Jesus did not rise from the dead, they could have just went back to their old lives and nothing would have happened to them.
Joseph Smith could have gone back to his old life, but he was killed in a jail cell.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt is possible. It depends on whether or not there was any possible naturalistic explanation for the event.
It's "neither reasonable nor rational" if you've already decided the "supernatural" is as likely (or close to as likely) as the "natural." Experience tells me that a) naturalistic explanations regularly displace supernatural ones, and never the reverse, b) supernatural claims are regularly (always) shown to be frauds, hoaxes, or misunderstandings, c) most claims to "supernatural" are little more than claims for the unlikely (misunderstandings of probability) and, d) I have zero personal experience of the supernatural. Based on those observations, it is reasonable/rational to demand clear and unambiguous evidence for a supernatural occurrence before accepting it as such.
So Merriam Webster offers two primary definitions: 1) of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil; 2) departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature.
That is the definition I use. How else do you propose to define the term?
In short, there is literally nothing that could convince you that a miracle had occurred because your mind is already made up, and you will always prefer a mundane explanation.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Roy View PostYour evidence that any contemporary witnesses ever read or heard the gospels is...?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYour definition says that it only appears to transcend the laws of nature, which means it doesn't in actuality.
And BTW, it's not "my definition." It was cut/paste from Merriam Webster. I neglected to include this link.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAlso, "unusual" does not mean implausible. So the dictionary definition doesn't help your argument.
In general, MM, something that is "supernatural," in my book, is something that defies the normal operation of the universe. So turning water into wine is "supernatural" unless you take the usual approach of passing it through a grapevine, squeezing the grapes, and fermenting the results. Likewise, "raising someone from the dead" is supernatural, unless we are talking about resuscitating someone who is well within the bounds of resuscitation.
Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIn short, there is literally nothing that could convince you that a miracle had occurred because your mind is already made up, and you will always prefer a mundane explanation.Last edited by carpedm9587; 04-18-2018, 05:24 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostThis is funny in light of the numerous times you've called the Christians on this board "not real Christians.""I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIt's too early in the morning and I'm pre-coffee... can you explain the joke to me? Why is it funny that that people I don't regard as being real Christians would say weird/wrong things such as accusing real Christians of not being real Christians?
If you had been you would be still.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThen what happened to the disciples for the next 40 years after the death and supposed resurrection, when the NT was actually written?
In short there's basically zero evidence that any alleged resurrection appearances to them inspired them to achieve or do anything.Last edited by Starlight; 04-18-2018, 06:00 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostYou were never a real Christian.
If you had been you would be still."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostDo I take it you're a Calvinist who holds to "Perseverance of the Saints" in the face of the observable evidence that some people do fall away?
.
Romans 8.
And 1 John 2:19:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostDo I take it you're a Calvinist who holds to "Perseverance of the Saints" in the face of the observable evidence that some people do fall away?
The whole thing has the flavor of accusing someone of being an alcoholic. Since one of the symptoms of alcoholism is denial, once accused, you're an alcoholic. If you don't deny, your admitting you are. If you do deny, that's a symptom of alcoholism. Sort of a catch-22.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Go ahead and defend each other. One can not know God through Jesus Christ and then deny Him. There is head knowledge, and heart knowledge, and SL had one and not the other.
Of course you will mock and denigrate scripture for your own ends.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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