Which Would You Personally Prefer...

[Tassman]

If you were told you had cancer and you didn't even believe that you did, would that mean that you didn't have it? Or that you were just too stupid to believe the doctor? He could show you a white spot on an X-Ray and you could just say, "So what? That doesn't prove anything!"

Denial doesn't mean you won't die of cancer (or of your sins)

So dishonest!

I said If I was told I had cancer and there was no substantive reason to think I had cancer, why would I believe I had it or was in need of cure? By the same token, IF there is no substantive reason to believe I am sinful and in need of saving, why would I believe such nonsense. The doctrine of the 'fall of man' is not analogous to white spots on x-rays.

Thanks.

Anytime!

[37818]

Hmm . . .

So it is really not Christianity per se. But the idea that the universe was created by a Creator you think is non sense.

What is your deductive argument for the universe which renders the concept of a created universe non sense?

[Sparko]

Poor analogy! If I was told I had cancer and there was no substantive reason to think I had cancer, why would I believe I had it or was in need of cure? Just as there is no substantive reason to believe I am sinful and in need of saving. I'm basically a nice guy actually.

If you were told you had cancer and you didn't even believe that you did, would that mean that you didn't have it? Or that you were just too stupid to believe the doctor? He could show you a white spot on an X-Ray and you could just say, "So what? That doesn't prove anything!"

Denial doesn't mean you won't die of cancer (or of your sins)

What a thoughtful, well argued response. I expect no less from the Trump of T'Web.

Thanks.

[Sparko]

Sparko, it still comes down to the same thing no matter how you try to spin it. If the cure, i.e. being saved, is simply to believe in the existence of Jesus as god, then not believing is the reason you are being punished. Its no different than for those who believe, you are not saved because you no longer sin, you are saved because you believe. Right? You can't have it both ways amigo. If you're saved because you believe, then you are doomed because you don't believe. Besides the obvious logic of that, the idea that a god would send better behaved souls to hell than those he saves, simply because they honestly came to the wrong conclusion concerning the existence of Jesus as god is, well, a bit ridiculous, and itself not believable.

[Tassman]

He doesn't. You are being punished for your sins. Your lack of belief is what stops you from being saved.

If you had cancer and I told you there was a cure, and you didn't believe me, would I be the reason you died, or would the cancer be the reason?

Poor analogy! If I was told I had cancer and there was no substantive reason to think I had cancer, why would I believe I had it or was in need of cure? Just as there is no substantive reason to believe I am sinful and in need of saving. I'm basically a nice guy actually.

Getting to me?

No, Tassy, you are not getting to me. That's so cute. You think your trolling is actually getting to anyone.

Like I said, we all think you are a moron and don't take you seriously. You and JimL. Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber.

What a thoughtful, well argued response. I expect no less from the Trump of T'Web.

[JimL]

He doesn't. You are being punished for your sins. Your lack of belief is what stops you from being saved.

If you had cancer and I told you there was a cure, and you didn't believe me, would I be the reason you died, or would the cancer be the reason?

Sparko, it still comes down to the same thing no matter how you try to spin it. If the cure, i.e. being saved, is simply to believe in the existence of Jesus as god, then not believing is the reason you are being punished. Its no different than for those who believe, you are not saved because you no longer sin, you are saved because you believe. Right? You can't have it both ways amigo. If you're saved because you believe, then you are doomed because you don't believe. Besides the obvious logic of that, the idea that a god would send better behaved souls to hell than those he saves, simply because they honestly came to the wrong conclusion concerning the existence of Jesus as god is, well, a bit ridiculous, and itself not believable.

[Sparko]

Well, you sort of answered, but not really. The main point was why would god punish those who honestly come to the wrong conclusion regarding their belief, or rather disbelief, in the existence of god?

He doesn't. You are being punished for your sins. Your lack of belief is what stops you from being saved.

If you had cancer and I told you there was a cure, and you didn't believe me, would I be the reason you died, or would the cancer be the reason?

[JimL]

I JUST told you! You quoted my answer in your post! Are you blind or posting high again?

Well, you sort of answered, but not really. The main point was why would god punish those who honestly come to the wrong conclusion regarding their belief, or rather disbelief, in the existence of god?

[Sparko]

Okay, now why do you think that our belief in the existence of god, matters to god at all, or that such a belief in and of itself is worthy of the reward of eternal life? Belief in a god is strctly an intellectual matter, we weigh the evidence and some of us come to the right, and some of us come to the wrong conclusion. Why would that matter to god, why would he punish or reward people due to their honest conclusions?

I JUST told you! You quoted my answer in your post! Are you blind or posting high again?

[JimL]

Let me put it to you this way. If Hitler had decided to accept Jesus 1 second before he died, he would be in heaven right now.

and it is not that our belief saves us. Our belief allows us to accept God and Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. Without belief you can't accept the gift of salvation and God's mercy that is extended to you. And if you do accept and believe, then you will follow God and his commandments out of love as best as you can. You would not go around murdering millions of Jews and trying to take over the world. You might still sin but you would try not to. Not that being sinless is a condition of your salvation, it is not. You don't earn your way into heaven.

Okay, now why do you think that our belief in the existence of god, matters to god at all, or that such a belief in and of itself is worthy of the reward of eternal life? Belief in a god is strctly an intellectual matter, we weigh the evidence and some of us come to the right, and some of us come to the wrong conclusion. Why would that matter to god, why would he punish or reward people due to their honest conclusions?

[Sparko]

Okay, well for someone who likes to think he speaks for everyone, apparently not many christians want to back you up on this. So let me ask you this, if Hitler was a christian, if he believed in Jesus all his life, would he still be saved regardless of anything else he did in life? Now I can guess what you will answer, if Hitler loved and believed in Jesus, he wouldn't sin in the first place, but we know that's not true since we are all sinners, and we all sin against those that we love at times as well. So, are you still going to argue that belief is all that is required to be saved. And a second question. Why do you think that our belief in the existence of god, matters to god at all, or that such belief is worthy of the reward of eternal life?

Let me put it to you this way. If Hitler had decided to accept Jesus 1 second before he died, he would be in heaven right now.

and it is not that our belief saves us. Our belief allows us to accept God and Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. Without belief you can't accept the gift of salvation and God's mercy that is extended to you. And if you do accept and believe, then you will follow God and his commandments out of love as best as you can. You would not go around murdering millions of Jews and trying to take over the world. You might still sin but you would try not to. Not that being sinless is a condition of your salvation, it is not. You don't earn your way into heaven.

[JimL]

You are modifying your claims now Jim.

We are saved just by believing in Jesus and his sacrifice for us, despite our NOT being good. Being "good" is merely what we do in gratitude and because Jesus saved us. Not to be saved. You could be the most evil person in the world, and believe and accept Jesus one second before you died and never have done one good thing in your life and still be saved. That is what we believe. We worship God because we love him. I told Tassman that too. Maybe if you actually read what people wrote instead of just posting in response to imaginary ideas of what you think they believe, you would actually have a decent conversation with them. Instead you seem to be posting while high on pot or something.

Okay, well for someone who likes to think he speaks for everyone, apparently not many christians want to back you up on this. So let me ask you this, if Hitler was a christian, if he believed in Jesus all his life, would he still be saved regardless of anything else he did in life? Now I can guess what you will answer, if Hitler loved and believed in Jesus, he wouldn't sin in the first place, but we know that's not true since we are all sinners, and we all sin against those that we love at times as well. So, are you still going to argue that belief is all that is required to be saved. And a second question. Why do you think that our belief in the existence of god, matters to god at all, or that such belief is worthy of the reward of eternal life?

[JimL]

You think Christianity makes nonsensical claims. Well, if I thought that . . . . There are those who I think have nonsensical beliefs, such as God making the Sun, Moon and making the stars on a fourth day. [The Hebrew text says no* such thing.] Our local Milky Way galaxy is some tens of thousands light years across. And then the idea that the Creation took place only some 6,000 years ago. I don't think so.
That is just a YEC view the Hebrew Bible, which I found untenable. The pomp and in order to be saved ritual of the Catholic and so-called Orthodox churches.

What do you think is nonsensical and why?




[* the fourth day says lights, not the objects from which their light comes.]

You may choose to believe that the creation didn't take place in 6 days because modernity knows better, but there is no reason to believe that the authors of the bible didn't mean exactly what they wrote.

[Sparko]

Are you denying that Christian believe in a triune god, and believe in spirits and demons. I think you believe in these things as I said, so what's to be "corrected"?



Getting to you, huh!

This is a fairly obvious 'defence mechanism'.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/defense-mechanism

Getting to me?

No, Tassy, you are not getting to me. That's so cute. You think your trolling is actually getting to anyone.

Like I said, we all think you are a moron and don't take you seriously. You and JimL. Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber.

[Tassman]

You think Christianity makes nonsensical claims. Well, if I thought that . . . . There are those who I think have nonsensical beliefs, such as God making the Sun, Moon and making the stars on a fourth day. [The Hebrew text says no* such thing.] Our local Milky Way galaxy is some tens of thousands light years across. And then the idea that the Creation took place only some 6,000 years ago. I don't think so.
That is just a YEC view the Hebrew Bible, which I found untenable. The pomp and in order to be saved ritual of the Catholic and so-called Orthodox churches.

What do you think is nonsensical and why?




[* the fourth day says lights, not the objects from which their light comes.]