What if your evidence is wrong but you have no way of knowing it?
For example, driving a car down the road and your speedometer reads 50 mph (or kph if you prefer). You think you are going 50 mph because of the reading but in reality you are going 40 mph (kph).
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI never said there was for you. But then how can you accept what does not make any sense to you?You did not and were not able to follow my argument. Your effective answer to my question, without saying it, is "no."
So this is what I need to understand from you. How do you recognize a truth. And how would you explain how to recognize a truth?Last edited by Tassman; 04-02-2018, 12:55 AM.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI never said there was for you. But then how can you accept what does not make any sense to you? You did not and were not able to follow my argument. Your effective answer to my question, without saying it, is "no."
So this is what I need to understand from you. How do you recognize a truth. And how would you explain how to recognize a truth?
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostOur friend JimL maybe an atheist, but is a professed agnostic. My answer was from a stated Christian perspective. And JimL's response to Sparko seemed to be oblivious to that understanding. Jim does not agree with a view should state it in that way rather than, what seemed to be a mischaracterization of what he does not agree with.
That very well may be.
My answer was presenting from the premises I have come to hold, which is what I understood was being asked. Not what scientific evidence I had in mind. Notice my use of "I" in my answers.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostYes, again I am giving my reasons.
Yeah, that seems to the problem. How to get someone hear. It seems to be in evidence, you did not seem to understand what I was ranting about.
I might as well be speaking in gibberish.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostDo you understand the difference between a "wage" and a "gift?"
Originally posted by 37818 View PostDo you understand the difference between being "punished" for being wrong, regardless of reasons for being wrong. And being "forgiven," with the requirements being, one must willing accept it as solely a gift and without any conditions to deserve the forgiveness, other than accepting it as a gift.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo what was it you discovered that was not true?
Originally posted by 37818 View PostOK. So when you were a professing Christian, what would you have explained as to what the requirements were to become a Christian?
Originally posted by 37818 View PostYeah, you are correct in that.
The task and problem is just that. How to get the message to those who have trouble understanding it.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostEgad! How about you stop with the inane excuses. If a god made man, then he didn't make man good, if he did then that man wouldn't have disobeyed god in the first place. You are the one who fails to see the biblical account in your reasoning, because you don't use reason when seeing it.
How was man made good, without having the knowledge to understand the difference between good and evil, to know to choose to disobey is evil? Do you think not being able to choose is good?
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThere is no substantive reason for me to accept scripture as authoritative.
So this is what I need to understand from you. How do you recognize a truth. And how would you explain how to recognize a truth?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIn a like vein...37818...you fail to see that an atheist is not going to see/accept the biblical account as authoritative. From an atheist perspective, we need to know why we should accept this account as true before we will do so. We do not believe a god (of any form) exists. We see the stories of Genesis as a combination of mythology and legend. We see it as a testament to the beliefs of an ancient people - not a testament to "what actually happened." So quoting scripture is meaningless, until and unless you can make the case for why we should accept this collection of books as authoritative beyond provinding a testament of the beliefs of its authors.
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo...I am thinking that you may not truly grasp the atheist position or how to address the issues.
An atheist is not going to accept the OT as a valid argument. You need to make the case for why this document should be accepted as a source of "truth."
Originally posted by TassmanWhat is your true premise from which to make a deductive argument proving the truth of a created universe.
You've shifted to the NT - but the problem remains.
I don't think you understand that, for an atheist, this is a meaningless sentence. You might as well say, "by actually understanding that flibbits and so being enabled to believe it." We don't even know what this sentence means.
So this suggest you have had some mystical experience. We have not. So we're not sure if your "mystical experience" is real, or if you are more like a person with a psychosis that hears voices and experiences things. We have no access to this experience you have apparently had, so this is not coherent to us either.
Do you understand the difference between a "wage" and a "gift?" Do you understand the difference between being "punished" for being wrong, regardless of reasons for being wrong. And being "forgiven," with the requirements being, one must willing accept it as solely a gift and without any conditions to deserve the forgiveness, other than accepting it as a gift.
You are making statements that are completely alien to anything we have experienced. They are not 100% alien to me, because I had similar (I think) experiences. But I came to see them, eventually, as the experiences of a traumatized mind seeking solace.
Presumptively speaking for atheists - no - the argument makes no sense to us. What you have listed is not an argument to us; it is a collection of relatively meaningless words strung together in a way that makes no sense to us. You may be speaking out of your personal faith, but you are not doing so in a way that is accessible to an atheist (at least not this atheist - and I used to be Christian).
By definition, we cannot understand something that makes no sense to us. You are speaking from your position of faith - and it makes no sense to us. If you want to convey information, you need to speak the the level of the recipient of the message.
Thus is not a direct answer. It is an appeal to a book we do not believe is more than a combination of mythology and legend. You might as well say, "the direct answer to your question is that Zees is the god of all and gave rise to all other gods and demigods." I do not mean this disrespectfully - but you seem to be under the impression that an appeal to your personal mystical experiences is going to provide information for/to any of us who do not share that experience. It does not. The best we can do is nod politely and say, "if that's what you think..."
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Originally posted by 37818 View Post1) That God told us so. I have the written witness from Moses. Handed down by the Jewish people. OT.
2) It was by way of such writings, the Christian NT from which the gospel of grace (favor not merited) is provided by God to be forgiven completely.
3) By actually understanding that grace and so being enabled to believe it.
4) God giving me the new birth according to His promise of grace.
5) This new birth enabling me to know God. Which in turn allows me to believe the witness handed down from Moses.
Do you understand the circle of the above argument?
What you lack is the understanding of this grace. Being it is not possible to believe what you are not understanding.
The direct answer to your direct question is Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJimL, you fail to see the Biblical account in your reasoning. From a Christian perspective that account is deemed true. God made man good. The fall was do to two things. First, the woman was fooled by the Serpent's lie. (The man failed to stop her. As he should have.) And the man deliberately disobeyed God on her account. A good man making a very bad decision. Not yet having knowledge of evil. As I mentioned in another post there is the untold back story.Last edited by JimL; 03-31-2018, 04:00 PM.
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So...I am thinking that you may not truly grasp the atheist position or how to address the issues.
Originally posted by 37818 View Post1) That God told us so. I have the written witness from Moses. Handed down by the Jewish people. OT.
Originally posted by 37818 View Post2) It was by way of such writings, the Christian NT from which the gospel of grace (favor not merited) is provided by God to be forgiven completely.
Originally posted by 37818 View Post3) By actually understanding that grace and so being enabled to believe it.
Originally posted by 37818 View Post4) God giving me the new birth according to His promise of grace.
Originally posted by 37818 View Post5) This new birth enabling me to know God. Which in turn allows me to believe the witness handed down from Moses.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostDo you understand the circle of the above argument?
Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat you lack is the understanding of this grace. Being it is not possible to believe what you are not understanding.
Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe direct answer to your direct question is Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-31-2018, 12:38 PM.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostJimL, you fail to see the Biblical account in your reasoning. From a Christian perspective that account is deemed true. God made man good. The fall was do to two things. First, the woman was fooled by the Serpent's lie. (The man failed to stop her. As he should have.) And the man deliberately disobeyed God on her account. A good man making a very bad decision. Not yet having knowledge of evil. As I mentioned in another post there is the untold back story.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhat is your true premise from which to make a deductive argument proving the truth of a created universe.
2) It was by way of such writings, the Christian NT from which the gospel of grace (favor not merited) is provided by God to be forgiven completely.
3) By actually understanding that grace and so being enabled to believe it.
4) God giving me the new birth according to His promise of grace.
5) This new birth enabling me to know God. Which in turn allows me to believe the witness handed down from Moses.
Do you understand the circle of the above argument?
What you lack is the understanding of this grace. Being it is not possible to believe what you are not understanding.
The direct answer to your direct question is Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYou forget that we are imperfect human beings Sparko, and according to you, our imperfect selves are created by god, so for this god to save us or doom us based on our honest, reasoned, and imperfect conclusions regarding what we do, or do not believe, is ridiculous. It's not a matter of acceptance, it's a matter of belief!
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You forget that we are imperfect human beings Sparko, and according to you, our imperfect selves are created by god, so for this god to save us or doom us based on our honest, reasoned, and imperfect conclusions regarding what we do, or do not believe, is ridiculous. It's not a matter of acceptance, it's a matter of belief!
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostHmm . . .
So it is really not Christianity per se. But the idea that the universe was created by a Creator you think is non sense.
What is your deductive argument for the universe which renders the concept of a created universe non sense?
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