Does an Omniscient Creator Lead to Fatalism?

[One Bad Pig]

That you think not gives me sufficient notice of your lack of capabilities in this area, thanks.

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[Tassman]

I recognize that that's your assertion. You don't need to repeat it every time someone says something different.

You have not explained how God having the intentionDO

[Juvenal]

It's a logical argument ...

You misspelled statistical.

[JonathanL]

You are essentially creating an identical universe with the identical limits, producing the identical problem. The people in your hypothetical universe cannot choose otherwise without rendering it NOT the universe you are arguing for. You haven't addressed the problem.

Because the problem does not exist. The statement that we can not choose other than the choices God foresaw when he created this specific universe because it would mean that it is not the universe God decided to create simply is not true. The only thing that is necessary is that we do not choose otherwise, not that we can not choose otherwise.


The same is true with regards to preserving omniscience too, of course. It is not necessary for God's omniscience to be preserved that we can not choose other than what He has foreknown, only that we do not choose otherwise. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that if we had decided to choose differently then God would have foreknown that instead.

[Tassman]

Because the problem does not exist. The statement that we can not choose other than the choices God foresaw when he created this specific universe because it would mean that it is not the universe God decided to create simply is not true. The only thing that is necessary is that we do not choose otherwise, not that we can not choose otherwise.

cannot choose otherwise.

The same is true with regards to preserving omniscience too, of course. It is not necessary for God's omniscience to be preserved that we can not choose other than what He has foreknown, only that we do not choose otherwise. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that if we had decided to choose differently then God would have foreknown that instead.

NOT actually free will...merely the illusion of it.

[JimL]

You misspelled statistical.

[JimL]

Because the problem does not exist. The statement that we can not choose other than the choices God foresaw when he created this specific universe because it would mean that it is not the universe God decided to create simply is not true. The only thing that is necessary is that we do not choose otherwise, not that we can not choose otherwise.


The same is true with regards to preserving omniscience too, of course. It is not necessary for God's omniscience to be preserved that we can not choose other than what He has foreknown, only that we do not choose otherwise. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that if we had decided to choose differently then God would have foreknown that instead.

Ever hear of the law of non-contradiction? I'm sure you have, so how is it you ignore it in this case? It's obvious logic. You can't have free will from your own perspective but not have it from anothers perspective at the same time.

[carpedm9587]

Because the problem does not exist. The statement that we can not choose other than the choices God foresaw when he created this specific universe because it would mean that it is not the universe God decided to create simply is not true. The only thing that is necessary is that we do not choose otherwise, not that we can not choose otherwise.

Actually, I cannot, Chrawnus. That is a consequence of god's creative action - not the foreknowledge. God created the specific universe where my choices was X. I cannot choose "Y" because that is not the universe god created. I may feel I can freely choose - but I actually cannot.

The same is true with regards to preserving omniscience too, of course. It is not necessary for God's omniscience to be preserved that we can not choose other than what He has foreknown, only that we do not choose otherwise. That is, of course, ignoring the fact that if we had decided to choose differently then God would have foreknown that instead.

It has nothing to do with omniscience, except in so far as God used that omniscience to make a creative choice. Gods choice of "what I would choose" is ontologically prior to my choice, and determines my choice. God chooses and creates the universe where I do Y. I can no longer do X, because that is not the universe god created.

[Sparko]

Actually, I cannot, Chrawnus. That is a consequence of god's creative action - not the foreknowledge. God created the specific universe where my choices was X. I cannot choose "Y" because that is not the universe god created. I may feel I can freely choose - but I actually cannot.



It has nothing to do with omniscience, except in so far as God used that omniscience to make a creative choice. Gods choice of "what I would choose" is ontologically prior to my choice, and determines my choice. God chooses and creates the universe where I do Y. I can no longer do X, because that is not the universe god created.

No, his knowledge is temporally prior to your choice but logically AFTER your choice. His knowledge is dependent on your choice. If you choose different, he will know different. Logically it is no different than if someone in the future knows what decisions you made in the past. Let's say I know everything you did yesterday. Did I cause you to do it? No. Now suppose I have a time machine and go back to last week. I still have my same knowledge of what you did yesterday but it is now a week in the future to where I am. You will still do what you did, and I "pre-know" it but am not the cause of your actions. And if by some chance you change what you do, that would change what I know before I travel back in time and would change what I know after I travel back in time so I would still know what you will do.

[carpedm9587]

No, his knowledge is temporally prior to your choice but logically AFTER your choice. His knowledge is dependent on your choice.

Sparko - you're not even making sense here. God needs to know what my choice WILL be before I even exist, so yes, it's temporally prior. So he has to have foreknowledge of the choices made in each universe. Then he selects the universe where I make that choice, thereby eliminating the possibility of all other universes. I cannot make a different choice - because that is a different universe which does not exist by god's creative action.

If you choose different, he will know different. Logically it is no different than if someone in the future knows what decisions you made in the past. Let's say I know everything you did yesterday. Did I cause you to do it? No. Now suppose I have a time machine and go back to last week. I still have my same knowledge of what you did yesterday but it is now a week in the future to where I am. You will still do what you did, and I "pre-know" it but am not the cause of your actions. And if by some chance you change what you do, that would change what I know before I travel back in time and would change what I know after I travel back in time so I would still know what you will do.

No - you're trying to do the slight of hand that lets you have your cake and eat it to - but it makes no sense. You're trying to have god create Universe X - but if I choose Y instead of X, god creates universe Y instead. It's a cheap magician's trick. The argument I outlined above is perfectly reasonable.

[Sparko]

Sparko - you're not even making sense here. God needs to know what my choice WILL be before I even exist, so yes, it's temporally prior. So he has to have foreknowledge of the choices made in each universe. Then he selects the universe where I make that choice, thereby eliminating the possibility of all other universes. I cannot make a different choice - because that is a different universe which does not exist by god's creative action.



No - you're trying to do the slight of hand that lets you have your cake and eat it to - but it makes no sense. You're trying to have god create Universe X - but if I choose Y instead of X, god creates universe Y instead. It's a cheap magician's trick. The argument I outlined above is perfectly reasonable.

I am not even arguing about God creating specific universes here Carpe, Just the fact that foreknowledge of an event doesn't mean that there is no free will. In the example I gave you, I have foreknowledge of what you will do before you do it but that knowledge is entirely dependent on your actions. If you choose to do X, then I know X. If you choose to do Y, then I know Y. Your action logically is prior and determines my knowledge and not the other way around.

[carpedm9587]

I am not even arguing about God creating specific universes here Carpe, Just the fact that foreknowledge of an event doesn't mean that there is no free will. In the example I gave you, I have foreknowledge of what you will do before you do it but that knowledge is entirely dependent on your actions. If you choose to do X, then I know X. If you choose to do Y, then I know Y. Your action logically is prior and determines my knowledge and not the other way around.

The discussion I am responding to is specifically about the proposal that god foreknows all possible universes, and creates the one where people "freely choose" in a way consistent with his will. At no point have I suggested that knowledge controls choice. That proposal has other problems.

[JimL]

I am not even arguing about God creating specific universes here Carpe, Just the fact that foreknowledge of an event doesn't mean that there is no free will. In the example I gave you, I have foreknowledge of what you will do before you do it but that knowledge is entirely dependent on your actions. If you choose to do X, then I know X. If you choose to do Y, then I know Y. Your action logically is prior and determines my knowledge and not the other way around.

That is just dumb, dumb, dumb, Sparko, which of course has been explained to you over and over and over again for years now, but it never seems to seep in. It has to be a psychological thing with you people, the error of your explanation is to obvious for a properly functioning mind not to be able to see. If you actually look for the fault in your own argument, you'll probably find it!

[Sparko]

That is just dumb, dumb, dumb, Sparko, which of course has been explained to you over and over and over again for years now, but it never seems to seep in. It has to be a psychological thing with you people, the error of your explanation is to obvious for a properly functioning mind not to be able to see. If you actually look for the fault in your own argument, you'll probably find it!

Sorry Jim, but it is you who don't understand logic.

Here I even made you a spreadsheet. It shows God's foreknowledge and Your Action
The foreknowledge is dependent on the action. Change the action and watch the foreknowledge change.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[carpedm9587]

Sorry Jim, but it is you who don't understand logic.

Here I even made you a spreadsheet. It shows God's foreknowledge and Your Action
The foreknowledge is dependent on the action. Change the action and watch the foreknowledge change.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Intellectual slight of hand....