Originally posted by Tassman
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI think you are agreeing with what I am saying (and what Seer is saying) pretty strongly. All three of us are saying that it is possible to know THAT a being (any kind of animal, including homosapiens) experiences qualia. What we cannot do is EXPERIENCE the qualia of another being. We can never know exactly what that experience is like for that being. For example, we can know that a being is receiving light at a particular wavelength; we can see that the visual cortex is lighting up in response; we can even compare the pattern of that activity with the pattern of our own activity at the same optical wavelength. What we cannot know is whether the two beings experience that color identically. We can only experience our own qualia, by definition. We cannot experience that of another being.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell we can't know because anothers actual experience is theirs alone, but we can be fairly certain, I think, that if the cause of an experiential effect upon an object, and the nature of the object being effected are basically the same in multiple cases, then the qualia, or the personal experience would most likely be the same in each case. In other words the experience of "red" would most likely be the same in each case in which the cause and the object effected are basically the same. No?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo. We can infer similarity. But how can you show that your experience of a particular wavelength of light is exactly the same as mine? That is the issue with qualia - it is individual. We cannot KNOW, in the way that we know 2+2=4, that someone else's experience is identical to ours, or even how much different it is. Even if they self-report - we do not know if they are lying, using confusing language, or unable to convey the experience accurately. For the purpose of practical functioning, we assume other people's experience approximates our own, and that they are honest with us in relating their experiences.
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhere did I ever deny that animals could have subjective experiences? What I have said and maintain, is that we can not know what those experiences are like for them.
Right and that is beyond science,
and this is evidence that reductionism is false...
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI think you are agreeing with what I am saying (and what Seer is saying) pretty strongly. All three of us are saying that it is possible to know THAT a being (any kind of animal, including homosapiens) experiences qualia.
What we cannot do is EXPERIENCE the qualia of another being. We can never know exactly what that experience is like for that being. For example, we can know that a being is receiving light at a particular wavelength; we can see that the visual cortex is lighting up in response; we can even compare the pattern of that activity with the pattern of our own activity at the same optical wavelength. What we cannot know is whether the two beings experience that color identically. We can only experience our own qualia, by definition. We cannot experience that of another being.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostSo you agree with Carp that "all three of us are saying that it is possible to know THAT a being (any kind of animal, including homosapiens) experiences qualia"?
It is not beyond science. Neuroscience is making great advances in the areaAtheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostRight, we can't show it, and we can't know it, but we do have reason to believe that the experience of "red" say, is the same for you as it is for me. Afaics at least, there is no reason to believe that the experience isn't the same.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostI think you will find that seer believes humans to be unique and that non-humans do NOT experience qualia...which is primarily why I entered the discussion. You and I acknowledge that they do whereas seer, in my experience, does not.
Actually, I never did anything of the kind. I have always been sure "self-awareness" is a continuum, and qualia (though I did not know the term before) is as well. I could not think of a way to determine if other animals did indeed experience qualia (if that's not redundant), but the experiment outlined in one of the papers seems to have been an elegant solution to that problem. I simply have taken the same position as Seer - that one being cannot experience another's qualia and there is no way to know if the qualia of two separate beings is equivalent.
It is possible we are all agreeing violently. It certainly would not be the first time.
Of course, if Sparko was here, I'd probably be told that I was "backpedaling" and he'd tell me what I actually thought. MM would probably label my discussion, "like jello."
(and yes, I know those are examples of the "what if" statements I don't usually engage in. But a little tweek now and then doesn't hurt....)The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes, I think it is possible for other animals to have subjective experiences.
I don't see why not. We just could never know what those experiences are like for them.
Of course it is, that is why you don't understand the problem.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThat is not what I hear Seer saying. Trust me - I would challenge him if I thought he was wrong.
Actually, I never did anything of the kind. I have always been sure "self-awareness" is a continuum, and qualia (though I did not know the term before) is as well. I could not think of a way to determine if other animals did indeed experience qualia (if that's not redundant), but the experiment outlined in one of the papers seems to have been an elegant solution to that problem. I simply have taken the same position as Seer - that one being cannot experience another's qualia and there is no way to know if the qualia of two separate beings is equivalent.
It is possible we are all agreeing violently. It certainly would not be the first time.
Of course, if Sparko was here, I'd probably be told that I was "backpedaling" and he'd tell me what I actually thought. MM would probably label my discussion, "like jello."
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostSettle this for us please seer. Do you believe that humans are the same in principle as chimpanzees in experiencing the internal, subjective components of sense perceptions that we refer to as qualia?
The observable qualities of altruism, empathy, gratitude and reciprocal behaviour among say, chimpanzees all indicate experiential qualia to some degree. I agree that there is no way to know if the qualia of two separate beings, whether human or simian, are equivalent but neuroscience may well provide the answers in due course.
Originally posted by Tassman View PostWe know that they do.Last edited by seer; 03-25-2018, 07:05 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWe have reason to believe that the experience is highly similar. IMO, we have no reason to believe it is exactly the same. Indeed, it would seem an odd idea that two completely separate neurological systems, with two completely separate "input devices" governed by two different genomes in two people with different historical experiences would be identical.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo would you think that the experience of "red" is different for each of us? Would you guess that we are all experiencing a different color while calling it "red."?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo would you think that the experience of "red" is different for each of us? Would you guess that we are all experiencing a different color while calling it "red."?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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