Free will defense?

[One Bad Pig]

Hi Seer, it has been a while, I'm currently looking for work, and have some extra time! Hope you're doing well...

Blessings,
Lee

Good to see you around, Lee. God grant that you find work soon.

[MaxVel]

Sin is not the same as rebellion. All dictators tend to punish rebellion. We have a moral duty to oppose dictatorship. It follows that rebellion against God is a moral duty.

Actually it doesn't follow at all. Write your argument out as a syllogism, you'll see. Your logic is flawed, thus your conclusion can't be trusted.

[firstfloor]

All false cults teach one must "do" in order to obtain and keep forgiveness. ............ All one needs to do is trust (believe) God and in His Son whom He sent (John 3:16; John 5:24; John 17:3).

What is your difficulty?

[37818]

Though I'm missing the aspect of loyalty here?


John 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe."

Implying that they had a real choice to believe, thus prevenient grace must have been present.

John 10:26 ... but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

There is a cause for the unbelief! Their nature caused it, "you are not my sheep." It is not "you are not my sheep because you do not believe," that would be foreseen faith. Instead "you do not believe because you are not my sheep," and God makes sheep, people don't make themselves sheep, thus God's choice determines who will believe, not the other way around. More thoughts on foreseen faith may be found here.

Blessings,
Lee

God's omniscience is not foreseeing anything. God just knows. And God through His Holy Spirit sanctifies those by which they are elected believing the truth to obey it. Our choices are real and God's omniscience is absolute. Everyone's names begin in the book of life to either be sealed or to be blotted out. (Mark 10:14-15; John 3:3,7; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; 20:15; Romans 3:23-26. Ephesians 2:1-5.)

1 Peter 1:2;
. . . Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . .

2 Thessalonians 2:13,
. . . because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . .

[Mountain Man]

Just a general comment, I think Christians who quote parts of verses, or isolate words and phrases that seem to support their view are treading on dangerous ground, because this methodology make it's far too easy to take something out of context. If a position can be supported by scripture then surely one can quote a complete passage, or at least a complete thought? I'm always suspicious of any argument that quotes only a partial sentence.

[Charles]

I've not studied this matter deeply, but it seems that the Bible uses the term "elect" or "chosen" to refer to anybody who is loyal to God. Ephesians 1 seems to support this:

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."

So if God knew before the world was even created which of us would be saved, does that obliterate freewill? Of course not, because God is not temporal, at least not as we understand temporal, so at the instant of creation, or perhaps at the instant God had the intent to create, he saw the whole of the universe, all of space and time from beginning to end and knew which of us would repent of our own freewill and which of us would rebel, again of our own freewill, and the former he called "elect" or "chosen".

Going into this deeper, since God knew what would happen, he could have made changes to his creation so that, perhaps, different people would choose to repent and others would choose to rebel, but instead he looked at his creation, said, "This is what I choose to create," and that was that. So repentance is a freewill act, but it was God's choice not to alter his creation to cause a different outcome.

I'm mostly spitballing here, so I hope this makes sense.

[firstfloor]

Actually it doesn't follow at all. Write your argument out as a syllogism, you'll see. Your logic is flawed, thus your conclusion can't be trusted.

Right enough.

[Mountain Man]

Because, like I suggested, after seeing how the events of the universe would unfold from beginning to end, God chose to create anyway without changing anything to cause a different outcome.

But you're right in the sense that this is a problem of language, because we're trying to describe an eternal, non-temporal being using our limited, temporal language. Of course it's possible I'm wrong about all of this, but I haven't seen anything conclusive one way or the other. I don't like the idea that God would create someone who was deprived of the freewill to repent, but if that's what the Bible says then I have to accept that. A popular verse to support this view is Exodus 9:16, "But for this purpose I have raised you [Pharoah] up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." Pharoah, as the story goes, rebelled to the bitter end and so God's power was shown in the many plagues and the eventual defeat of Pharaoh and his army, but I contend that the same result could have been achieved if Pharaoh had dropped to his knees and repented instead -- what could be a more powerful testament of God's power to the people of Egypt than to see a man whom they believed to be a god submitting to Yahweh?

[37818]

Just a general comment, I think Christians who quote parts of verses, or isolate words and phrases that seem to support their view are treading on dangerous ground, because this methodology make it's far too easy to take something out of context. If a position can be supported by scripture then surely one can quote a complete passage, or at least a complete thought? I'm always suspicious of any argument that quotes only a partial sentence.

Do you prefer the arguments to be written with references only?

God's omniscience is not foreseeing anything. God just knows. And God through His Holy Spirit sanctifies (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13) those by which they are elected believing the truth to obey it. Our choices are real and God's omniscience is absolute. Everyone's names begin in the book of life to either be sealed or to be blotted out. (Mark 10:14-15; John 3:3,7; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; 20:15; Romans 3:23-26. Ephesians 2:1-5.)

Or maybe no references at all.

The use of ... ellipsis in a quote is to indicate omission of text.

[Mountain Man]

Like I said, it was just a general comment.

[Adrift]

I've not studied this matter deeply, but it seems that the Bible uses the term "elect" or "chosen" to refer to anybody who is loyal to God. Ephesians 1 seems to support this:

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."

So if God knew before the world was even created which of us would be saved, does that obliterate freewill? Of course not, because God is not temporal, at least not as we understand temporal, so at the instant of creation, or perhaps at the instant God had the intent to create, he saw the whole of the universe, all of space and time from beginning to end and knew which of us would repent of our own freewill and which of us would rebel, again of our own freewill, and the former he called "elect" or "chosen".

Going into this deeper, since God knew what would happen, he could have made changes to his creation so that, perhaps, different people would choose to repent and others would choose to rebel, but instead he looked at his creation, said, "This is what I choose to create," and that was that. So repentance is a freewill act, but it was God's choice not to alter his creation to cause a different outcome.

I'm mostly spitballing here, so I hope this makes sense.

Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone else mentioned it, but this sounds like Molinism in a nutshell.

Dr. Craig Blomberg does a short, decent summary of it here, too, if you're interested: http://www.biblestudytools.com/blogs...an-debate.html

[37818]

Just an observation. Those whose names are not in the book of life at the event of the final judgement are cast into the eternal fire (Revelation 20:15).

It can be understood that Jesus taught children are safe (Mark 10:14). And only those who receive God's kingdom as a child will have any part in it (Mark 10:15).

Jesus told a religious ruler that only those who are born over will even see God's kingdom (John 3:3).

So it follows children's names are in the book of life.

And only those who are also born from God will not have their name removed (1 John 5:1-4; Revelation 3:5; 21:7).

[Mountain Man]

Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone else mentioned it, but this sounds like Molinism in a nutshell.

Dr. Craig Blomberg does a short, decent summary of it here, too, if you're interested: http://www.biblestudytools.com/blogs...an-debate.html

Well, at least I'm in good company. To be honest, I probably formulated a lot of these ideas from reading Dr. Craig's essays over the years but had forgotten the particulars. Here's a longer essay from Craig:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/molinism

One interesting idea he brings up is the notion that someone could be predestined but who never makes the choice to repent. He quotes a French Molinist who says, "It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined; But it is up to me whether I am predestined in the world in which I find myself."

[shunyadragon]

I can imagine what you would think of my view of free will, then! I believe that only children of God are free, and can choose freely.

Blessings,
Lee

I disagree, the nature of human will is universal, whether free or not. The nature of our will is Created by God and is common to all humans.

[lee_merrill]

I feel like your selective quoting has whacked out a central pillar of my argument, namely the premise that God saw the entire history of his creation in an instant, saw which of us would choose to repent, and then chose not to alter his creative act and cause other people to repent instead.

Well, I choose not to argue this point!

"...you do not believe because you are not my sheep." But they could have chosen to become his sheep by repenting, but Jesus knew they wouldn't because he, being God, already knew the entire course of universal history.

Yet the point remains, that Jesus did not say "you are not my sheep because you do not believe."

Blessings,
Lee