Originally posted by carpedm9587
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Free will defense?
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Last edited by Adrift; 11-18-2017, 12:08 AM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostHmm. I'm not sure what you mean by the questioner ignoring the possibility of our choosing otherwise. It seems to me that both writers understand that concept. And if we're referring to an omniscient God, and his free will, then there isn't really anything outside of himself that could constrain him, so that seems like a non-issue. Also, your long hall analogy doesn't sound too dissimilar to the questioner's secretly implanted electrodes analogy. So, I'm not really sure I see the issue there. I also don't see how one's inability to realize an evil choice would seriously constrain one's free will. That doesn't at all seem obvious to me.
And your observation about god, to me, cements the contradiction. You have a being outside of which there is nothing that can constrain him/her/it - and yet that being ALWAYS must act morally and cannot act immorally. I do not see how that being is exempt from the observation that, without the ability to choose to act evilly, you are reduced to a form of moral robot. They are, after all, all powerful - yet they are apparently constrained - and that constraint is themselves? It seems to me to go in circles.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe writer focuses on the choice made by the person, heavily leveraging the fact that the chooser is oblivious to the constraints on them. That I am oblivious to my constraints does not alter the fact that they are there - and that I am NOT, in reality, free to choose. In other words, the choice is an illusion. Take the scenario they paint and expand it to all of humanity. Across the face of humanity, you would expect some people to choose good, and others to choose evil. It has always been thus. But in the writers world, everyone would choose good, because no one actually CAN choose evil. Do you see the problem?
Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd your observation about god, to me, cements the contradiction. You have a being outside of which there is nothing that can constrain him/her/it - and yet that being ALWAYS must act morally and cannot act immorally. I do not see how that being is exempt from the observation that, without the ability to choose to act evilly, you are reduced to a form of moral robot. They are, after all, all powerful - yet they are apparently constrained - and that constraint is themselves? It seems to me to go in circles.
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Afreedom of the will per se
(emphasis mine)Last edited by Adrift; 11-18-2017, 09:34 AM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostNo, frankly I don't. I'm sorry. I'm not even certain you're framing what the writer wrote correctly, or that you're getting his point. At least it doesn't seem so to me. It may just be that I'm misunderstanding your point though.
Originally posted by Adrift View PostThere are other free will choices other than evil choices. Deciding between creating a man, and a lizardman is still a freewill choice. I believe both the questioner and Craig actually discuss that in the linked website (not that exact example of course). Again, unless I'm missing something really obvious, I almost feel like you haven't read the linked page. Just to make sure we're on the same page, I'll post the question and reply here:
freedom of the will per se
(emphasis mine)
Now I recognize that no "freedom" is absolute. It is true that I still have a constrained level of "free will" (maybe we should call it "constrained will" because "free will" simply does not exists - there are always constraints) if I can choose from a subset of options. But the question at hand is "what defines "moral goodness." I would say it is defined by someone making morally good choices. We call the person who makes good moral choices a morally good person, and the person who makes bad moral choices a morally compromised or "bad" person. But if you eliminate the entire set of choices that are "for evil," and limit the person to only the subset of choices that are "good," then the difference between morally good and morally bad is academic - it is never realized - all are limited to making morally good choices, so how can anyone be said to be a morally good person? Even if they are unaware of their constraints, the constraint remains. It is not forcing them to choose - it is preventing them from choosing otherwise. The net result is the same, as far as I can tell.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostI often hear people say that evil is in the world because God had to allow free will. "Love must be free" is another way to state this, this is the "free will defense" to the problem of evil, yet love in heaven will be free, without the possibility of sinning. God's love is free, even though he cannot sin (see Heb. 6:18).
And "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Not because we chose to!
I believe that only believers are free (John 8:34,36), free will thus does not explain the problem of evil.Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
George Horne
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