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Malina and Pilch on Religious Visions

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  • Malina and Pilch on Religious Visions

    Malina and Pilch on Religious Visions

    Malina and Pilch are a couple of Context Group scholars who have written a couple of dozen books between them about the social-historical context of the NT world. We've touched on the concept of the early Christians having visions in a couple of other threads here, so I wanted to quote at length from their Social-Science Commentary on the Book of Revelation.

    Sky Visions (from preface and introduction)

    From the period of the Roman Empire alone, the surviving astrological corpus matches in bulk the entire historical corpus... The authors of this commentary take the author of Revelation at his word. If he said he went into the sky, we believe that in his estimation, he went into the sky... The questions, then, are: How did people in antiquity go into the sky? What did they expect to see in the sky? ...The author of Revelation presents himself as John, an astral seer... How does his Israelite background and faith in Jesus undergird his understanding of his sky experiences, sky readings, and sky visions?....

    In first-century perspectives, these celestial entities were not only angelic beings but also stars - the same stars visible to us today. For in the period of the New Testament, stars were considered to be personal, living beings.

    ...Babylonian astronomical/astrological knowledge (the two were identical at the time) spread throughout the Mediterranean world... Due to this new knowledge, this period saw the rise of the local production of astronomical and astrological lore as the Babylonian traditions were appropriated. And so secrets about deities rooted in the new knowledge could now be made known. It would seem that the newly appropriated Babylonian lore greatly stimulated awareness that the deities had very important secrets readily knowable by persons who could read the sky. Those who were adept read the sky to explain either what had happened in the past or what would happen rather soon...

    Like other Mediterranean peoples of the period, people of the house of Israel used the newfound lore to learn about their God's activities just as other ethnic groups did (see, for example, the prophets Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Daniel, as well as the authors of The Testament of Shem, The Books of Enoch, The Testament of Solomon...)

    The Hellenistic age witnessed the emergence of specially Israelite revelations rooted in sky readings... it was common in the period to read the sky to find out information about the past celestial and social conditions that led to the present social conditions as well as to find out answers concerning what the sky holds in store for kingdom as a whole... and in general when to begin certain activities influenced by the sky... Such activities might include house building, land purchases, and travel. Thus the prophetic Paul claims that his second trip to Jerusalem after his conversion was dictated by revelation (Gal 2:2); he promises the Philippians that God would reveal to them the truth of competing opinions (3:15).

    In this book [Revelation], John the prophet follows the path of his learned contemporaries and travels to the sky to read the sky.


    Altered States of Consciousness (ASC)

    I think those section's from Malina and Pilch's book are very helpful in understanding what was going on in the early Church in general. It is clear from Paul's letters that spiritual experiences and visions and prophesies were encouraged in his churches. And particularly important to notes is that Paul and these church groups believed they could learn information from such revelations:

    1 Cor 14:26-40

    When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret... Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, let the first person be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged...

    Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. Anyone who does not recognize this is not to be recognized. So, my friends, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues

    As is being discussed in another thread, Paul comments that he learned of the Last Supper from Jesus:

    1 Cor 11:23-35

    For I received from the Lord

    Likewise the accounts in Acts of the early church, make it clear that when the Holy Spirit came upon them all there was a lot of prophesying and a lot of visions.

    So in the biblical accounts, both Paul and Acts are clear that throughout the very early church, there was a great deal of activity involving prophesying, visions, interpretations, and a belief that true information could be learned from such activities. (It's also somewhat interesting, I think, how pervasive such activity seemed to be in the early church yet how lacking it generally seems to be in the gospels, but I'm not really sure what to make of that...?)

    An important question then is: To what extent was the theology of the early church, and their beliefs about Jesus, and their accounts of his ministry, shaped by their visions and interpretations? Did Paul invent the idea of the Last Supper because it was revealed to him in a vision, and spread it around his churches so much it was later included in the gospels? What else that went into the gospels was learned by these early churches through visions and prophesies and revelations?
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

  • #2
    This statement by Paul is also worth considering:

    Gal 1:11-12

    For I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin; for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #3
      It's been too long since I read theology... but I seem to recall that somebody (some 2nd century gnostics? a modern scholar? can't remember) argued that when Paul speaks of "the Lord" or "Christ" he is speaking of the spiritual-vision risen-Jesus, whereas when he just uses the name "Jesus" without any title on it, he's referring to Jesus-the-man, i.e. the fleshly historical Jesus.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #4
        The authors of this commentary take the author of Revelation at his word. If he said he went into the sky, we believe that in his estimation, he went into the sky
        Revelation can't be understood by taking it literally. It is apocalyptic literature, which is meant to be be figurative. It also can't be understood apart of the book of Daniel, another book containing apocalyptic literature. Trying to take it literally is pretty much the exact opposite way it should be read.

        Comment


        • #5
          As is being discussed in another thread, Paul comments that he learned of the Last Supper from Jesus:
          And as has been pointed out on that same thread, "received" doesn't mean "learned."
          Nor does Paul make any claim that he "received about" - the words he uses are "received from" - an ambiguous claim that would not necessarily mean "receiving directly from" - and it certainly doesn't when other of his comments are taken into account.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #6
            Since the appearance to Paul was a "vision" and he places it in the same list as the other "appearances" without a distinction in 1 Cor 15:5-8 it can be inferred that the others had "visions" as well.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
              Since the appearance to Paul was a "vision" and he places it in the same list as the other "appearances" without a distinction in 1 Cor 15:5-8 it can be inferred that the others had "visions" as well.
              If you throw out all evidence to the contrary, sure.
              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                It's been too long since I read theology... but I seem to recall that somebody (some 2nd century gnostics? a modern scholar? can't remember) argued that when Paul speaks of "the Lord" or "Christ" he is speaking of the spiritual-vision risen-Jesus, whereas when he just uses the name "Jesus" without any title on it, he's referring to Jesus-the-man, i.e. the fleshly historical Jesus.
                That sounds like a modern argument, JEPD style. Off-hand, it seems unlikely.

                I think I have Pilch & Malina's commentary on Revelation lying about unread. I should dig it up and take a crack at it (I'm currently in the midst of Andrew of Caesaria's commentary on the book - a translation by Eugenia Constantinou is available on academia.edu).
                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm unfortunately in between academic institutions right now and can't read reviews of the commentary you're referring to. The issue is one that I brought up in another thread: you're leaning very heavily on the remark in Galatians and suggesting that Paul's information comes entirely from revelation. That does not seem likely, as Paul quotes several kerygmatic formulae.

                  The issue that your proposal runs into is not tremendously dissimilar from the issue that Carrier's argument for mythicism runs into. You'd have to assume that Paul and all the other disciples had similar visions, and that they agreed upon the content of these visions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I actually want to add onto my last comment. With regard to the Context Group: outside of Kloppenborg and Zeba Crook, I haven't really heard of any of these scholars. In the journals I keep up with (NTS, JSNT, JSHJ, Novum Testamentum), they don't seem particularly active. Now, that doesn't mean that they're bad scholars, but it does mean that they're not producing scholarly work with any regularity.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by psstein View Post
                      you're leaning very heavily on the remark in Galatians and suggesting that Paul's information comes entirely from revelation. That does not seem likely, as Paul quotes several kerygmatic formulae.
                      I'm not saying Paul's information comes entirely from revelation, I'm saying he supplemented what he learned from other Christians with revelations of his own and those from his churches

                      Gal 1:11-12
                      For I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin; for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

                      1 Cor 11:23-35
                      For I received from the Lordaccording to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

                      1 Cor 14:26-31
                      When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret... Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, let the first person be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged


                      You'd have to assume that Paul and all the other disciples had similar visions, and that they agreed upon the content of these visions.
                      I don't have to assume any such things. I think there were variations among the early Christian groups because as people in each group reported visions and prophesies these would have been different among each group and church. Presumably as believers traveled between groups they carried with them teachings that they thought were worth sharing. Prophets in the receiving groups could then access the spiritual realms to confirm or dis-confirm the truthfulness of the teachings they were being brought:

                      1 Cor 14:40
                      Anyone who claims to be a prophet, or to have spiritual powers, must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. Anyone who does not recognize this is not to be recognized.

                      This naturally caused various levels of conflict among the early church groups regarding teachings!

                      Originally posted by psstein View Post
                      With regard to the Context Group: outside of Kloppenborg and Zeba Crook, I haven't really heard of any of these scholars. In the journals I keep up with (NTS, JSNT, JSHJ, Novum Testamentum), they don't seem particularly active.
                      Sorry to hear your reading is so narrow. Pilch and Malina have published a couple of dozen books each on the social context of the NT, with Malina's 1981 volume The New Testament World: Insights from Cultural Anthropology being a heavily used textbook on the subject for the past 35 years. Both of them are now in their 80s, so I doubt they regularly publish new journal articles! Though amazingly, they still seem to manage to churn out a new densely-packed volume in the Social Science Commentary series every few years!
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1 Cor 14:40 is among a small group of verses that do give cause for some concern. I'm thinking that Paul was speaking from response to some rather heavy duty provocation.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          If you throw out all evidence to the contrary, sure.
                          Where does Paul give any evidence to the contrary? You can't just read in secondhand or worse testimony from 20-40 years later which Paul nowhere corroborates and assert that he necessarily believed the same thing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
                            Where does Paul give any evidence to the contrary? You can't just read in secondhand or worse testimony from 20-40 years later which Paul nowhere corroborates and assert that he necessarily believed the same thing.
                            Hey, thanks for proving my point.
                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Hey, thanks for proving my point.
                              So no evidence to the contrary then. I don't see you "your point" or how it is in any way a "good" one. Historians prefer firsthand testimony because it's more likely to accurately reflect what the earliest beliefs were. Being committed to later accounts (which are contradictory and contain legendary growth) and asserting that those are somehow more reliable than firsthand testimony is not proper historiography nor a rational position to hold.
                              Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 06-20-2017, 12:07 PM.

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