Originally posted by Starlight
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity
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Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostBecause I don't trust you and because I was bored, I spend some time googling up on this, and your claims don't really seem to hold up.
Firstly, midrash Haggadah doesn't seem to have become particularly popular until later (100-500 AD) and is there even a single example of someone using it on Genesis 1? The midrashs seem to focus on Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers. I can't find one that mentions the creation narratives.
Midrash pre-dates the Rabbis by several centuries.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostObviously the ancient Israelites up to and including the time of Jesus thought the early parts of genesis were literal truth.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostQuestionable at best. The sources are limited to the small minority of what has survived. And, as I showed above, these kinds of stories were very common in the Ancient Near East."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostBecause I don't trust you and because I was bored, I spend some time googling up on this, and your claims don't really seem to hold up.
Firstly, midrash Haggadah doesn't seem to have become particularly popular until later (100-500 AD) and is there even a single example of someone using it on Genesis 1? The midrashs seem to focus on Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers. I can't find one that mentions the creation narratives.
Another example of this are the discrepancy in the ages of several of the various patriarchs provided in the Masoretic text of the genealogy of Genesis 4 as compared to those provided in the Septuagint (the Torah portion of which is likely from the 3rd century B.C.). For instance they disagree how long Peleg and his son Reu lived with the Masoretic giving numbers that total 239 years for each while the Septuagint has 339 years for each. If you add up the years between Adam and the Flood the Masoretic tell us it was 1656 years while the Septuagint calculates it at 2262 years. A similar substantial difference can be seen for the post-diluvian patriarchs as well.
This indication of a somewhat fluid tradition suggests that the Jews of the time were still working things out as does Hillel and Shammai's disagreement over whether heaven or earth was created first. That could not have happened if as you said "the ancient Israelites up to and including the time of Jesus thought the early parts of genesis were literal truth."
Originally posted by Starlight View PostSecondly, Philo was really far from mainstream Judaism, and his works weren't at all influential within Judaism. He's not a useful source for understanding general Jewish beliefs. He was a weird and idiosyncratic theologian writing weird things. But you are right about his non-literal view of the 'days':
Creation cannot, he says, have taken place in six natural days, for days are measured by the sun's course and the sun is but a portion of creation. The literal story of Adam's rib being made into Eve he flatly calls " mythical."
But this is beside the point since it still serves to drive a hole through your proclamation that "Obviously the ancient Israelites up to and including the time of Jesus thought the early parts of genesis were literal truth." Philo, Josephus, Hillel and Shammai all contradict this.
Originally posted by Starlight View PostThirdly, Josephus treats Genesis 1 as literal. He's regularly cited across the internet by YEC's and they quote from him. Josephus talks about figurative language in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of genesis, but not the first.
So much for that.Last edited by rogue06; 05-31-2017, 09:46 PM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnother example of this are the discrepancy in the ages of several of the various patriarchs provided in the Masoretic text of the genealogy of Genesis 4 as compared to those provided in the Septuagint (the Torah portion of which is likely from the 3rd century B.C.). For instance they disagree how long Peleg and his son Reu lived with the Masoretic giving numbers that total 239 years for each while the Septuagint has 339 years for each. If you add up the years between Adam and the Flood the Masoretic tell us it was 1656 years while the Septuagint calculates it at 2262 years. A similar substantial difference can be seen for the post-diluvian patriarchs as well.
Hillel and Shammai
This directly contradicts your second point which includes the bit about how "Creation cannot, he says, have taken place in six natural days." The days are part of Genesis 1."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThe 'best' in terms of the correct interpretation of what the writers of the bible really meant and believed?
Or best in terms of making for a vaguely plausible / defensible / coherent / personally satisfying theology?
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
John 19:28-30,
. . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the spirit. . . .
Hebrews 10:10,
. . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. . . .
Hebrews 10:12,
. . . He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, . . .. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAnd that denies the finished work on the cross.
"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI would view these as primarily being a result of textual errors in manuscripts.
And the fact that such differences existed for over 500 years (from the Samaritan to the Septuagint) indicates that the Jews were hardly overly concerned with it (unless you think they were too stupid to notice) which would be inconceivable if they were beholden to a strict, literal reading of the text.
Originally posted by Starlight View PostReading about their debates, I don't think they support the general point you are trying to make. Genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other on the ordering of creation events. The two Rabbis essentially had different views on which of Genesis 1 or 2 was actually correct.
The very fact that Jews like Philo, Josephus, Hillel and Shammai could have such different views concerning the creation makes the claim that during their time Jews were following a very literal interpretation of the creation account more than a bit untenable.
Originally posted by Starlight View PostYou're getting confused, Philo said the creation days weren't literal, Josephus thought they were. The quote is about Philo.
Josephus wrote about Jewish history from the creation to his time and seems to have no trouble adding and omitting to his paraphrased version of Genesis 1. For instance he adds a good deal to the part about the creation of the firmament and omits parts he felt uncomfortable with such as the reference in Genesis 1:5 that declares that "there was evening and there was morning, one day" since the Jewish day did not end at sunrise, several blessing he didn't think were appropriate, all quotes from God for whatever reason (something he does a lot in his retelling of the Bible record), and the mention of the Leviathan in 1:21 and changed it to creatures that swim likely because he saw it as a mythical creature.
As Thomas W. Franxman notes in his Genesis and the "Jewish Antiquities" of Flavius JosephusETA: But even if Josephus held that the creation account provided in Genesis 1 was exactly as it happened the fact that he and Philo disagreed over this (and Josephus didn't hold a similar view about Genesis 2 and 3) demonstrates that there were a variety of views on the matter rather than supports your initial claim that "Obviously the ancient Israelites up to and including the time of Jesus thought the early parts of genesis were literal truth" does not stand up to even a cursory exam.Last edited by rogue06; 06-01-2017, 11:01 AM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostLike Paul.... . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostHow do you treat the theological status of NT biblical references that implicitly assume the literalness of Gen 1-3 as a basis for their arguments - e.g. Jesus on divorce (and very indirectly on same sex marriage) "God made them man and woman", and Paul on sin and death coming into the world and Christ undoing that in Rom 5?
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Originally posted by psstein View PostI see Paul's references as representative of what he himself believed, plus you're assuming the doctrine of original sin is original to Paul, not the result of a mistranslation by Augustine.
It's disputed among scholars whether or not Paul actually wrote Colossians... I lean towards authenticity, but my mind is far from made up."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by psstein View PostI see Paul's references as representative of what he himself believed, plus you're assuming the doctrine of original sin is original to Paul, not the result of a mistranslation by Augustine.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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