The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

[tabibito]

You think modern Europe is a remnant of the Roman Empire? Even though much of it (Germany/Denmark/Poland/Scandinavia) was never even part of the Roman Empire?

Be specific. Which parts of Europe and which parts of the Middle East are remnants of the Roman Empire. Spain? Jerusalem? Scotland? Jordan? Sicily? Oman? Rome? Since your prophecy depends on there still being extant remnants of the Roman Empire to be crushed by 'God's kingdom',* unless you can actually name an extant remnant of the Roman Empire your prophecy has failed.

*In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end,

Not that I (necessarily) subscribe to the basic theory, but the Vatican City itself remains as one of a few extant parts of the ancient Roman empire, though I believe that Napoleon essentially took the Vatican. There may be one or two small areas in addition that have never been successfully attacked. (something I recall reading a while ago, but I didn't take any real notice of the article.

[Roy]

Not that I (necessarily) subscribe to the basic theory, but the Vatican City itself remains as one of a few extant parts of the ancient Roman empire, though I believe that Napoleon essentially took the Vatican.

I tried checking. I think the Vatican shared the fate of Rome in 410 and 476, and ceased being part of the Roman Empire at the same time as the rest of Rome did, but confirming this'd take more research than I have time for.

[tabibito]

I tried checking. I think the Vatican shared the fate of Rome in 410 and 476, and ceased being part of the Roman Empire at the same time as the rest of Rome did, but confirming this'd take more research than I have time for.

As it happens, the 400s aren't needed to establish fall of the Vatican. Official Church of Rome records show that the Vatican fell in 1527.

During the attack (1527 ADhttp://vatican.com/articles/info/the_sack_of_rome-a4149

Still trying to find that bit I remember about two very small areas that haven't been successfully invaded since Roman Republic times.

[Roy]

As it happens, the 400s aren't needed to establish fall of the Vatican. Official Church of Rome records show that the Vatican fell in 1527.

During the attack (1527 ADhttp://vatican.com/articles/info/the_sack_of_rome-a4149

Still trying to find that bit I remember about two very small areas that haven't been successfully invaded since Roman Republic times.

...and now I know about the Passetto di Borgo. Cool!

[One Bad Pig]

Here is an excerpt from Daniel's vision of a large statue:

So "partly strong and partly brittle" refers to the remnants of the Roman Empire, and those remnants have persisted to this day. Other kingdoms aren't in view here, what would falsify this prophecy would be a reuniting of the remnants of the Roman empire into another kingdom.

The next step is God's kingdom:



Blessings,
Lee

Lee, you seem to understand the Kingdom of God much like the Jews of Jesus' day did. Rome was shattered about the 5th century with the triumph of Christianity; the kingdom of God is within you.

[lee_merrill]

The problem, Lee, is that development HAS occurred in that area. It simply has a different name (Hillah), much of the area is now aggrarian, and the heart of what was Babylon is a tourist area. So perhaps the board of the tourist area would suffice? Or the mayor of Hillah, which occupies some of what was formerly ancient Babylon?

Though the tourist area is of the ruins of Babylon, the city has not therefore been rebuilt or reinhabited.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

So you think Spain is an extant remnant of the Roman Empire that will be crushed by 'God's Kingdom' - despite it already having been already conquered by the Visigoths in the 5th century, the Arabs in the 8th century, various Christian nations in the 13th century, and the French then the British in the 19th Century - not including various incursions by Magyars, Moroccans, and other Arabs, plus various internal conflicts. Your expected 'God's Kingdom' cannot crush the remnants of the Roman Empire since they will continue to be remnants of the Roman Empire even after being conquered.

So I would say the current situation with various peoples occupying this region suits the prophecy nicely, there has not been a fifth kingdom over this area.

Your own source says this already happened:

Yes, but I take it that even then Babylon was not rebuilt.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Lee, you seem to understand the Kingdom of God much like the Jews of Jesus' day did. Rome was shattered about the 5th century with the triumph of Christianity; the kingdom of God is within you.

Though I think Daniel is talking about the kingdom of God in a sense of earthly ruling:

"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever." Da 2:44.

Blessings,
Lee

[Roy]

So I would say the current situation with various peoples occupying this region suits the prophecy nicely, there has not been a fifth kingdom over this area.

But since you would also say the opposite situation (if the Roman Empire had never been conquered by Visigoths) suits the prophecy equally nicely, there is no way to falsify the prophesy in your mind.

Yes, but I take it that even then Babylon was not rebuilt.

'The prophesy is true - don't bother me with facts'.

[carpedm9587]

Though the tourist area is of the ruins of Babylon, the city has not therefore been rebuilt or reinhabited.

Blessings,
Lee

OK, Lee. If it's important to your beliefs, so be it. It is not an adequate basis for me to establish a belief system. It's much too nebulous and unbounded.

[lee_merrill]

But since you would also say the opposite situation (if the Roman Empire had never been conquered by Visigoths) suits the prophecy equally nicely, there is no way to falsify the prophesy in your mind.

Well, no, the Roman Empire had to disintegrate somehow into "partly strong and partly brittle."

'The prophesy is true - don't bother me with facts'.

[Doug Shaver]

"but the city became insignificant and almost disappeared before the coming of Islam in the 7th century AD." (Encarta Encyclopedia)

So, what did the prophecy say? Not rebuilt? Or, rebuilt, but insignificant and almost disappearing?

[Roy]

Well, no, the Roman Empire had to disintegrate somehow into "partly strong and partly brittle."

Since you are still claiming the Babylon wasn't rebuild when you know it was the seat of the Seleucid government, you'd have no trouble finding an excuse for some of the Roman Empire being 'brittle'. The German parts being under frequent attack from Goths, for example.

"After 312 BC, Babylon was for a while used as a capital by the Seleucid dynasty

D'you think the government met in a field?

[Roy]

So, what did the prophecy say? Not rebuilt? Or, rebuilt, but insignificant and almost disappearing?

Or rebuilt, used as a capital, but displaced decades later when a new capital was founded?

[shunyadragon]

So I would say the current situation with various peoples occupying this region suits the prophecy nicely, there has not been a fifth kingdom over this area.


Yes, but I take it that even then Babylon was not rebuilt.

Blessings,
Lee

The problem it is common all through ancient history many great cities, kingdoms, empires were destroyed and never rebuilt. Some cities destroyed were rebuilt again and again when it supported an economy and need.

A prophesy that any one city or another will not be rebuilt is not significant.

The prophesy concerning the city of Tyre being never rebuilt failed, because it has been rebuilt and occupied for most of history. There are numerous prophecies that have not come true. Point to a couple of maybes is not a good argument.