Getting to grips with God

[Tassman]

No, human colonial expansion. Since disease caused rather more deaths than anything else, straight edge atheist pacifists visiting the same shores would've accomplished much the same thing.

Yes, but I thought Christianity was supposed to make a difference. Obviously not!

You might want to re-think your sentence structure here, since it rather implies that the Conquistadors were native cultures destroyed by Christians.

I realised this too late to alter it.

But the point remains that entire native cultures were destroyed during the colonial expansion by Christians and entire populations were reduced to the demoralised subcultures we see today. Australia at least has offered a public apology to the Aborigines.

You make that sound like a bad thing. The love of Jesus caused missionaries to condemn the violence done by their own people to the natives.

Whilst nevertheless taking advantage of their dominant position as part of the prevailing culture.

Rather. The Crusades were all around a failure, but that's probably the low point.

I think the Crusaders seating a naked prostitute on the Patriarch's throne in Hagia Sophia was perhaps the lowest, most cynical point of the whole unfortunate episode. And the Crusaders' invasion so weakened the Byzantine empire that it ultimately resulted in The Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, thus dealing a massive blow to Christendom as the Muslim Ottoman armies thereafter were left unchecked to advance into Europe.

[Kbertsche]

Yes, but I thought Christianity was supposed to make a difference. Obviously not!

But the point remains that entire native cultures were destroyed during the colonial expansion by Christians and entire populations were reduced to the demoralised subcultures we see today. Australia at least has offered a public apology to the Aborigines.

Whilst nevertheless taking advantage of their dominant position as part of the prevailing culture.

It would do you good to read some histories and biographies of Christian missionaries such as Hudson Taylor.

[Tassman]

It would do you good to read some histories and biographies of Christian missionaries such as Hudson Taylor.

There are good men and women of all religions and none, this has always been so in all societies.

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, but I thought Christianity was supposed to make a difference. Obviously not!

It would've helped had medical science advanced to the point where Christians could have done much about the disease angle - though they did try. Cotton Mather, for all his other faults, was instrumental in establishing the practice of inoculation against smallpox.

But the point remains that entire native cultures were destroyed during the colonial expansion by Christians and entire populations were reduced to the demoralised subcultures we see today.

Helped along considerably by Darwin's racist theories.

Australia at least has offered a public apology to the Aborigines.

Not sure what apologising for something I had no hand in accomplishes.

Whilst nevertheless taking advantage of their dominant position as part of the prevailing culture.

In an attempt to help, yes.

I think the Crusaders seating a naked prostitute on the Patriarch's throne in Hagia Sophia was perhaps the lowest, most cynical point of the whole unfortunate episode.

Yeah, tough to get much lower than that.

And the Crusaders' invasion so weakened the Byzantine empire that it ultimately resulted in The Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, thus dealing a massive blow to Christendom as the Muslim Ottoman armies thereafter were left unchecked to advance into Europe.

Wasn't the first time the Crusaders did that. From the first, the Crusaders tended to indiscriminately attack all Muslims, some of whom were allied with Constantinople at the time. Fortunately for Western Civ, the Byzantines managed to hold out just long enough to jump-start the Renaissance.

[Tassman]

It would've helped had medical science advanced to the point where Christians could have done much about the disease angle - though they did try. Cotton Mather, for all his other faults, was instrumental in establishing the practice of inoculation against smallpox.

The point being made is that Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. Except for fanatics (a problem in all religions), they just reflect the social mores of the day.

Helped along considerably by Darwin's racist theories.

Not sure what apologising for something I had no hand in accomplishes.

In an attempt to help, yes.

In an attempt to propagate their religion you mean, which is what religion does.

Yeah, tough to get much lower than that.

Agreed!

Wasn't the first time the Crusaders did that. From the first, the Crusaders tended to indiscriminately attack all Muslims, some of whom were allied with Constantinople at the time. Fortunately for Western Civ, the Byzantines managed to hold out just long enough to jump-start the Renaissance.

[tabibito]

The point being made is that Christians are no better or worse than anyone else.

True enough sadly (from Christians' point of view). If we were as better as we should be, there would be fewer excuses for atheism: though a significant number would manufacture excuses anyway.

[Doug Shaver]

though a significant number would manufacture excuses anyway.

No manufacturing is necessary, as long as your best defence is to insult your adversaries.

[One Bad Pig]

The point being made is that Christians are no better or worse than anyone else. Except for fanatics (a problem in all religions), they just reflect the social mores of the day.

Well, no. It was Christian society which invented hospitals. It was Christian society which condemned slavery. It was Christian society which ended the practice of infant exposure. Are there individuals who profess Christianity yet do bad things? Yes. That hardly means we're just like everybody else. You're taking the worst and attributing that to the rest, which is wildly inaccurate.
Er, no. Ever read The Descent of Man? by one Charles Darwin?
I don't see the need for apologising for someone else's sins.

In an attempt to propagate their religion you mean, which is what religion does.

Which was an attempt to help. The Cherokees were given an alphabet and written language due to Christian endeavor. That's still going on today, by the way. Missionaries who reach unlettered tribes give them literacy.
Actually, no (not that there was any such thing as the "Dark Ages"). The Muslims contributed something, but plenty more came from Constantinople. The Muslims certainly played no part in Western intellectuals learning Greek. The Venetians and Genoese were heavily involved in Constantinople's last days.

[Tassman]

Well, no. It was Christian society which invented hospitals.

Nonsense! The earliest documented institutions aiming to provide cures were ancient Egyptian temples. Plus, in ancient Greece, there were many temples dedicated to the healer-god Asclepius, which functioned in effect as hospitals. All long before Christianity.

It was Christian society which condemned slavery.

Come now, it was Christian society that instigated slavery in the West in the first place. The largest Protestant body in the United States, the Southern Baptist Convention, was founded to retain slavery.

It was Christian society which ended the practice of infant exposure.

Certainly some theologians preached in favour of sparing the lives of the newborn, nevertheless abandonment of infants continued on a huge scale during the Middle-Ages in Europe.

Are there individuals who profess Christianity yet do bad things? Yes. That hardly means we're just like everybody else. You're taking the worst and attributing that to the rest, which is wildly inaccurate.

Er, no. Ever read The Descent of Man? by one Charles Darwin?

I don't see the need for apologising for someone else's sins.

If your society is benefiting from the destruction of another culture and theft of their land, an apology is the least you can do. Australia has officially apologised to its Aborigines for the destruction of their 60,000 year old culture and rightly so.

Which was an attempt to help. The Cherokees were given an alphabet and written language due to Christian endeavor. That's still going on today, by the way. Missionaries who reach unlettered tribes give them literacy.

Actually, no (not that there was any such thing as the "Dark Ages").

Yes there was a Dark Age. There was almost a thousand years (from c. 300 to c. 1250 CE) with virtually no advances in science, in contrast with the previous thousand years of major advances in the pagan Classical era.

The Muslims contributed something, but plenty more came from Constantinople. The Muslims certainly played no part in Western intellectuals learning Greek. The Venetians and Genoese were heavily involved in Constantinople's last days.

The Islamic world was in its Golden Age during the Dark Ages and was a contributor to The Renaissance in supplying information and ideas which had been lost in the West, including Latin translations of the Greek Classics and of Arabic texts in astronomy, mathematics, science, and medicine.

[tabibito]

Yes there was a Dark Age. There was almost a thousand years (from c. 300 to c. 1250 CE) with virtually no advances in science, in contrast with the previous thousand years of major advances in the pagan Classical era.

The "Dark Ages" is a historical periodization traditionally referring to the Middle Ages. It emphasizes the demographic, cultural and economic deterioration that supposedlyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_A...istoriography)

And as time goes on, the myth of the dark ages becomes increasingly less tenable.
circa 300 to 1250 you said?
300 Odometer, Street Lighting
365 Saddle
370 Paddle wheel ships
400 Astrolabe, Hydrometer
600s Heavy Plough
700s Tide Mill
800s Hour Glass
850 Gunpowder
1100s Blast Furnace
1200s Eye Glasses, Mechanical Clock, Spinning Wheel

[rogue06]

Even atheist scholars acknowledge that the whole Dark Ages thing is largely a myth. While it certainly no renaissance it was hardly a period of scientific stagnation.

[One Bad Pig]

Nonsense! The earliest documented institutions aiming to provide cures were ancient Egyptian temples. Plus, in ancient Greece, there were many temples dedicated to the healer-god Asclepius, which functioned in effect as hospitals. All long before Christianity.

Christian hospitals were free.

Come now, it was Christian society that instigated slavery in the West in the first place. The largest Protestant body in the United States, the Southern Baptist Convention, was founded to retain slavery.

Er, yes. It was also Christian society that eventually prevailed to end the practice.

Certainly some theologians preached in favour of sparing the lives of the newborn, nevertheless abandonment of infants continued on a huge scale during the Middle-Ages in Europe.

That was an aberrant re-introduction of the practice. There's also a question of how Christian Europe was in the Middle Ages (Rodney Stark argues that much of the peasantry was never Christianized).
Yes, but Christian teachings do have some influence. There are good among the non-religious, but it's certainly not the norm.
"Scientific" Darwinism also held that some races were more advanced than others. Tasmanians, for example, were killed so they could be studied as specimens.

If your society is benefiting from the destruction of another culture and theft of their land, an apology is the least you can do. Australia has officially apologised to its Aborigines for the destruction of their 60,000 year old culture and rightly so.

Expressing regret is fine. Apologising for something I didn't do is empty rhetoric.
Yeah, none of that is Christian (and much of it is anti-Christian).

The Islamic world was in its Golden Age during the Dark Ages and was a contributor to The Renaissance in supplying information and ideas which had been lost in the West, including Latin translations of the Greek Classics and of Arabic texts in astronomy, mathematics, science, and medicine.

Yes, it was a contributor. It was not the only contributor. The Greek East maintained much knowledge that the Latin West had lost, since it had never descended into barbarism.

[Tassman]

Even atheist scholars acknowledge that the whole Dark Ages thing is largely a myth. While it certainly no renaissance it was hardly a period of scientific stagnation.

Call it what you like but, unlike the pagan Classical period before it, it cannot be argued that Christianity "encouraged" science given that there was nearly a thousand years (until the Renaissance) when very little of great scientific significance occurred.

[Tassman]

Christian hospitals were free.

Unlike today in Christian dominated USA with its resistance to universal health care, which is unique in the developed world including completely secular nations like Norway..

Er, yes. It was also Christian society that eventually prevailed to end the practice.

So Christian society instigated slavery in the West and ultimately, 200 years later, ended it...reluctantly in many cases, e.g. the Southern Baptist Convention.

That was an aberrant re-introduction of the practice. There's also a question of how Christian Europe was in the Middle Ages (Rodney Stark argues that much of the peasantry was never Christianized).

Yes, but Christian teachings do have some influence. There are good among the non-religious, but it's certainly not the norm.

"Scientific" Darwinism also held that some races were more advanced than others. Tasmanians, for example, were killed so they could be studied as specimens.

Really!

Expressing regret is fine. Apologising for something I didn't do is empty rhetoric.

...and yet you still enjoy the fruits of the destruction of another culture and theft of their land. An apology is the very least you can offer.

Yeah, none of that is Christian (and much of it is anti-Christian).

Yes, it was a contributor. It was not the only contributor. The Greek East maintained much knowledge that the Latin West had lost, since it had never descended into barbarism.

It was a major contributor nevertheless

[Kbertsche]

Call it what you like but, unlike the pagan Classical period before it, it cannot be argued that Christianity "encouraged" science given that there was nearly a thousand years (until the Renaissance) when very little of great scientific significance occurred.

The prevailing view among modern historians of science is that Christianity was a major factor in the development of modern science, but not the only factor.

From a paper which I wrote a number of years ago:

Source: kbertsche

Issues in Science and Religion (Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1966), 48.
37 Barbour, 44-50.

© Copyright Original Source