Originally posted by Punkish
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Did I Quote Mine Marcus Borg?
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Originally posted by Punkish View PostQuick question to Tassman before I decide about the quote mining: Do you accept or reject that Jesus did the first type of wondrous works, healings / exorcism that Borg distinguishes from nature miracles (which you called 'magic' in the post that Adrift was responding to)? Thanks.
If your question is did Jesus's followers believe he did miracles, in the same sort of way as Joseph Smith's followers or Sathya Sai Baba's followers believe they did miracles, then the obvious answer is that certainly 30-100 years or so later at least some of his followers believed he did because they wrote the gospels, and Josephus seems to corroborate the idea that his followers believed in his miracles. If the question is, to what extent does Tass think we can look behind the gospels, to the "historical Jesus" and claim with any reasonable level of probability that the man called Jesus actually existed and really claimed to do miracles in the same sort of way Joseph Smith or Sathya Sai Baba did, then I would personally comment that I think the balance of probability leans fairly heavily toward a "probably yes" on that, but if that is your question to Tass I would be interested to see him comment.
I think it's always worth bearing in mind that any claims about history tend to be on a bit of an epistolomologically poor footing to begin with because they essentially involve playing a giant game of detective with surviving artifacts and documents and attempting to reconstruct the past by guesswork and deduction - claims about the past are inherently a matter of sorting through circumstantial evidence. Historical events are not repeatable the way any modern scientific field of inquiry is, nor are they able to be personally experienced by anyone living, so we can't 'know' about them the way we can 'know' about things like lights or cars or people we've met, we can just make guesses on balances of probability and attempt to reconstruct the past as best we can. We can guess that Jesus probably existed, and we can guess that he was probably seen by his immediate followers as a miracle worker. But those are, ultimately, guesses.
Edit: LOL, cross-posted. Oh well."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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OK, then Adrift's response with the 'quote mine' might still be valid, even without the supposed fatal omission. And Tassman, despite all these credulous people who apparently shouldn't be believed, Celsus still thought Jesus practiced magic he learned from Egypt. (! - who himself had issues with credulous people)
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Originally posted by Punkish View PostAnd Tassman, despite all these credulous people who apparently shouldn't be believed, Celsus still thought Jesus practiced magic he learned from Egypt. (! - who himself had issues with credulous people)"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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I'm starting to suspect that Tassman isn't a Christian.Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by psstein View PostI'm coming in late, but here's my view (as someone with published NT work and a lot of work on the NT):
1. Jesus was definitely known as a healer who performed miraculous healings/exorcisms/etc. So did a lot of other Jews, by the way. Whether or not Jesus acted outside of natural causes is a theological issue.
As I point out elsewhere, even John Dominic Crossan believes that Jesus performed actual historical miracles,
Whether Crossan believes these miraculous acts to be simply psychosomatic or something paranormal like Borg, I have no idea, and he doesn't go into it.
Originally posted by psstein View Post2. I am agnostic to the nature miracles (professionally). The stories are difficult to parse and follow many of the same constructions as Elisha's miracles in 2 Kings.
Last edited by Adrift; 04-06-2017, 08:31 AM.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostIf some-one who's judgment I trust thought |I was committing a fallacy, I'd look again. I often have. But I'd take a single respected individual's view over a numerical poll that includes people who fall for argumentum ad populum any time.
This is why I suggested for him to go over to a philosophy forum and ask the opinion of the members there regarding this - as most likely have a background in the subject. It's perfectly reasonable to do such a thing, as that's what those forums are for in the first place. People come to PhysicsForums all the time to settle an issue. But he dodged the challenge precisely because he knew how they would likely judge his choice use of quote brackets.
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Originally posted by Punkish View PostOK, then Adrift's response with the 'quote mine' might still be valid, even without the supposed fatal omission.And Tassman, despite all these credulous people who apparently shouldn't be believed,Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostI'm starting to suspect that Tassman isn't a Christian.
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