Edens in the Cosmos

[whag]

If the paradise experiment described in Genesis took place on another world, or trillions of them, what are the chances the species—which was exposed to the same conditions as us on earth—would behave perfectly throughout its entire existence? I wouldn’t bet a similar species to us could end up behaving perfectly forever. Even without Satan, I don’t think it would happen.

The safer bet is that human perfection isn’t possible. Christianity teaches this but with the twist that Christ enacts perfection for us because the transgression in Eden prevented all subsequent generations from behaving perfectly.

I think sin didn’t need help to originate. The recipe for not acting perfectly seems to be already there, and I think that’s why anti-evos reject the data we are pure animals draped with consciousness.
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[tabibito]

The safer bet is that human perfection isn’t possible. Christianity teaches this but with the twist that Christ enacts perfection for us because the transgression in Eden prevented all subsequent generations from behaving perfectly.

Ahem. (and just to forestall the usual objection from a certain party - the horribly oversimplified precis is) the Bible presents perfection as humanly impossible except by divine assistance.

I think sin didn’t need help to originate. The recipe for not acting perfectly seems to be already there.

The argument is defensible.

[whag]

Ahem. (and just to forestall the usual objection from a certain party - the horribly oversimplified precis is) the Bible presents perfection as humanly impossible except by divine assistance.

The Bible suggests human perfection was possible, hence God reacting sternly to the transgression with curses and such.

The argument is defensible.

You’re darn tootin’! =) That’s why I presented it thus.

[tabibito]

The Bible suggests human perfection was possible, hence God reacting sternly to the transgression with curses and such.

That was included in the "horribly oversimplified" bit.

[whag]

That was included in the "horribly oversimplified" bit.

No, because you summarized the classic Christian interpretation that post-fall humanity can’t be perfect.

Positing the divine expectancy in Eden isn’t a “horrible oversimplification” so long as there are Christians insisting that literal A&E is theologically necessary.

[tabibito]

No, because you summarized the classic Christian interpretation that post-fall humanity can’t be perfect.

My comment doesn't deny that it is possible.

[whag]

My comment doesn't deny that it is possible.

Do you have to start with the premise that human beings were cursed to conclude human perfection is an impossibility? I’m concluding there’s no sign of a curse and that human beings wouldn’t behave perfectly no matter what. We are by nature imperfect animals, so there’s no need to superimpose curses.
Childbirth appears to have always been painful for mammals.

[tabibito]

Do you have to start with the premise that human beings were cursed to conclude human perfection is an impossibility?

It would seem that people are born with equal potentials for perfection and for corruption, but that the former is almost never realised; and never realised without a lot of pain and struggle, even with divine assistance.

I’m concluding there’s no sign of a curse

I can understand that sentiment, but I do see reason to believe that the curse is more passive (withdrawal of blessing) than active.

and that human beings wouldn’t behave perfectly no matter what. We are by nature imperfect animals

but with the bestowed opportunity and capacity to surpass the limitations of "animalhood."

Childbirth appears to have always been painful for mammals.

I see no scriptural reason to believe that it wasn't .

[whag]

It would seem that people are born with equal potentials for perfection and for corruption, but that the former is almost never realised; and never realised without a lot of pain and struggle, even with divine assistance.

Almost never realized? Even if it’s realized through hardship, imperfection would have to be the antecedent.

I can understand that sentiment, but I do see reason to believe that the curse is more passive (withdrawal of blessing) than active.

What does that subtractive view of curse look like?

but with the bestowed opportunity and capacity to surpass the limitations of "animalhood."

No doubt we are different, with opportunities and extra capacity to surpass our mammalian kin, but by no means do we have the ability to act perfectly.

I see no scriptural reason to believe that it wasn't .

Pretend I’m one of your brethren who believes that birth pangs were visited on women, or that toil is the effect of human action. I’m willing to hear you out for their sake and go from there.

[tabibito]

Almost never realized? Even if it’s realized through hardship, imperfection would have to be the antecedent.

correct. That antecedent is part of the "subtractive" view of the curse - a blessing that was not bestowed.

What does that subtractive view of curse look like?

It is but a hypothesis at this stage, but you have provided for some openings.

No doubt we are different, with opportunities and extra capacity to surpass our mammalian kin, but by no means do we have the ability to act perfectly.

In the wholly natural order, correct.

Pretend I’m one of your brethren who believes that birth pangs were visited on women

In most translations the pains in giving birth are said to be increased. I don't see a reason in the Hebrew to argue against those translations, but I don't know Hebrew so I can't test the originals with certainty (instructional texts indicate that "increased" is correct). The LXX definitely says "increase" or "multiply." There is no indication that childbirth was ever painless. (BTW - you would need to change "mammals" to "placental mammals" - egg laying mammals and marsupials maybe don't have the problem.) If you were one of my brethren, I would open the Bible and put you through a brief reading comprehension test. On this one I would not expect much risk - with other, more directly germane to faith texts, risk can become profound - particularly when the facts become evident to that other person.

or that toil is the effect of human action.

Therein is another part of the subtractive view of the curse. Toil is a good thing and to be welcomed, but the need for excess toil results from the non-bestowal of blessing.

[whag]

correct. That antecedent is part of the "subtractive" view of the curse - a blessing that was not bestowed.

Okay.

In most translations the pains in giving birth are said to be increased. I don't see a reason in the Hebrew to argue against those translations, but I don't know Hebrew so I can't test the originals with certainty (instructional texts indicate that "increased" is correct). The LXX definitely says "increase" or "multiply." There is no indication that childbirth was ever painless. (BTW - you would need to change "mammals" to "placental mammals" - egg laying mammals and marsupials maybe don't have the problem.)

If the base level birth pains of placental mammals are “greatly multiplied” in human beings, that’s additive.

If you’re trying to say Eve acting perfectly would have earned her the blessing of “no pains” or base level placental mammalian birth pains, please show that biblical support. It seems to me there’s no blessing in the latter. What am I missing here?

If you were one of my brethren, I would open the Bible and put you through a brief reading comprehension test. On this one I would not expect much risk - with other, more directly germane to faith texts, risk can become profound - particularly when the facts become evident to that other person.

Consciousness unfortunately bestowed on us the subtractive curse of stubbornly held opinions. =)

Therein is another part of the subtractive view of the curse. Toil is a good thing and to be welcomed, but the need for excess toil results from the non-bestowal of blessing.

Being alive on a climatically and topologically variant planet will always result in more toil than we’d like. You’ll have to explain what you imagine a planet with medium toil would look like.

[tabibito]

If the base level birth pains of placental mammals are “greatly multiplied” in human beings, that’s additive.

Accepted. I will amend to mostly subtractive.

[whag]

Accepted. I will amend to mostly subtractive.

And toil?

[tabibito]

And toil?

Thinking about it.

Humans do have a thing for occupying hostile environments. But then, hostile environments tend to shift around from one millennium to the next.

On balance, there doesn't seem to be much evidence for the fallen world theory - not in the world, and not in the Bible. Well - not unless Satan being the god of this world counts, anyway - and it can be debated whether that is intended to be taken literally.

This one needs further cogitation.

[whag]

Thinking about it.

Humans do have a thing for occupying hostile environments. But then, hostile environments tend to shift around from one millennium to the next.

On balance, there doesn't seem to be much evidence for the fallen world theory - not in the world, and not in the Bible. Well - not unless Satan being the god of this world counts, anyway - and it can be debated whether that is intended to be taken literally.

This one needs further cogitation.

Take all the time you need. I’m flattered I gave you pause on this because you seem sharper than most Christians I’ve talked to about this. I appreciate the discussion.