Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?

[tabibito]

Near as I can tell, Jesus laid out rules of conduct, laws if you will, for people who choose God. I don't see him attempting to impose any rules on people outside that group.

eider - So perhaps you would care to elucidate; is it "peace on earth and goodwill to all men," or "peace on earth to all men of good-will."?

[eider]

And yet you can't quote "the Baptist" and your quotes of Jesus show no such thing. Looks like trolling to me. Or maybe ignorance?

Quote the Baptist?
For sure I can, and have added a few verses already. The Baptist upset a lot of important folks and there is no doubt imo that he was considered to be a major troll of or to the Temple and priesthood. I'm on a mobile and need to be on my laptop to post further about him.

I thought that this would be the place to really debate beliefs, any beliefs, and if any members want only debates which fit with their ideas then surely is not a proper apologetics section?

What do you want? You're the guvnor, so just tell me if a certain section of the membership should not be exposed to alternative viewpoints based upon the gospels?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

They taught charity, not socialism.

Tzedakah is justice as well as charity and is a commandment. This Jewish commandment is adapted in the so-called "Judgement of the Nations" in Matthew.

All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, ³³ and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. ³⁴ Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; ³⁵ for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, ³⁶ I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ ³⁷ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? ³⁸ And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? ³⁹ And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ ⁴⁰ And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,^[g] you did it to me.’ ⁴¹ Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; ⁴² for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, ⁴³ I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ ⁴⁴ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ ⁴⁵ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ ⁴⁶ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[Sparko]

Not true, Sparko
Not true.....

This thread is all about what the real mission was imo. The words and actions of both Jesus and Baptist speak for themselves.

And yet you can't quote "the Baptist" and your quotes of Jesus show no such thing. Looks like trolling to me. Or maybe ignorance?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Jesus and the Baptist...... both progressive socialists..... I think so.
What they both said and did shows that fairly obviously.

Or did your mean something different?

The concept of progressive socialism did not exist in the ancient world. It should be remembered that certain inherent human expressions of philanthropy have existed throughout recorded history. Indeed the earliest evidence for assessing a person's life and how they have lived it is to be found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead where the first Declaration of Innocence made to Osiris includes statements as to the benevolence and humanitarianism of the deceased during their lifetime.

[eider]

Obviously you started this thread in order to troll conservative Christians with nonsense.

Not true, Sparko
Not true.....

This thread is all about what the real mission was imo. The words and actions of both Jesus and Baptist speak for themselves.

[Sparko]

Jesus and the Baptist...... both progressive socialists..... I think so.
What they both said and did shows that fairly obviously.

Or did your mean something different?

Obviously you started this thread in order to troll conservative Christians with nonsense.

[eider]

IOW, you have absolutely no idea.

About what the Baptist said and did?
YOu need to go back and read what is already written about what he said and did.

[eider]

Charity is not the same thing as socialism

That was law...... not charity.

[eider]

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Yes, obviously Jesus' goal and mission was to establish a better political system for life here on Earth.

Are you denying the words and actions of both the Baptist and Jesus?
Have you any verses about them that show your point?

[eider]

Obvious is obvious.

Jesus and the Baptist...... both progressive socialists..... I think so.
What they both said and did shows that fairly obviously.

Or did your mean something different?

[eider]

This whole context is about exalting the earthly-but-godly king in a theocracy.

A Theocracy. Correct.
and in both verses :-
Job 27:17 ...........................what he lays up, the righteous will wear, and his silver will be divided by the innocent.

So best not to lay it up, NR.

...........and just for fun, just some of the many many references about poverty and wealth.........

Psalm 72:13
He will take pity on the poor and needy and save the lives of the oppressed.

And see how the poor, needy and oppressed will be saved?

Worth thinking about, NR.

This one argues against your point, as it affirms private property and inheritance, and advocates transfer of wealth based on moral virtue rather than "need."

No, NR, it tells that :-
Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is passed to the righteous.
..... so only good men should be able to leave funds, not sinners.
And Jesus tells us what happens to sinners......... yes?

You will never find a Christian who denies that Jesus -- and Paul, for that matter -- taught generosity, so I don't see your point in piling up verses that support that idea.

You have argued that Jesus never repudiated the OT laws requiring kindness to the poor. I infer this is your way of countering the objection that Jesus taught generosity, but not socialism (which has da gubmint enforce wealth transfer). This is effectively an argument from silence, something lefties usually denounce when conservatives note that Jesus never overturned the OT laws about homosexuality.

This thread is for anybody to take part in, NR........ but it's great to read that all Christians accept the actions and words of Jesus.
And then you spoil it by pointing at 'Lefties'........ exactly where on today's political spectrum do you think that the Baptist and Jesus would stand?

I need an answer to that, I think.

You have also indicated you prefer to isolate on the teachings and practices of Jesus and the Baptizer. Obviously this is a problem for those who consider all of Scripture to be equally "the inspired and authoritative word of God." But even apart from that, it is not entirely tenable, in that in Luke's version of the Last Supper account, Jesus notes that He is inaugurating the New Covenant. With a change of covenant, there is always the likelihood that there will be a change in the *terms* of the covenant, and in this case we have to go beyond the Gospels to find out about that.

I have indeed focused upon the words and actions of the Baptiser and Jesus.
These people have been recognised and acknowledged by loots of people outside Christianity, NR.

[rogue06]

You should have referred to Deuteronomy TM! Look at what Jesus must have been thinking of...... here it is, the whole verse:-
Deuteronomy {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

.............. you see? A Poor Law, which Jesus quoted.

Charity is not the same thing as socialism

[rogue06]

You can read about what the Baptist said and did in the gospels. But I will be focussing upon what verses there are on this thread.

IOW, you have absolutely no idea.

[MaxVel]

Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?

By offering Baptism to the people, both Jesus and the Baptist were giving cleansing and redemption for nothing, thus cutting off the vast flow of money in the the Temple and also to the greedy citizens around Jerusalem who even overcharged Temple visitors for shelter in outhouses, sheds and so forth.

By redacting so many rules and laws Jesus was giving the people an opportunity to Progress out of the old corrupted and hypocritical regime.

By promoting the sharing of wealth Jesus did not accept the situation of a few very wealthy people in a land with so many poor.

Progressive Socialist?

But members may have verses which show that Jesus was neither one nor t'other of these?

Mark {10:21} Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,

Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew {12:7} But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Matthew {23:25} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Yes, obviously Jesus' goal and mission was to establish a better political system for life here on Earth.