Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

[siam]

1) Or? Who says the two are mutually contradictive? It's still possible to explore facets of the doctrine, even if it's largely a mystery to us. And it being a mystery doesn't mean it isn't possible to clear up at least some of the confusion regarding the doctrine.

2) Jesus, who is both divine and human = dies (physical death). There's only one death involved here, but the person who dies has two natures.
No, the conventional definition of die is not "cease to exist", not unless you're an atheist, or someone who doesn't believe humans have a soul/spirit, or unless you're talking about something like "someone's anger dying out", but that definition of "die" doesn't fit physical/biological death. The definition of death that we're working with here is not "cessation of existence", but "permanent (sans divine intervention) cessation of biological activity".
Why are you constantly trying to split Jesus into two persons? There is not a "Jesus human", and a "Jesus Divine". There is one Jesus, who is both human and Divine. And He was not simply perceived as 'dead', His physical body died a true physical/biological death, that is, His body ceased all biological activity, and His body would have remained dead, where it not for divine intervention.
Why are you so obsessed with defining death as "cease to exist"? As a muslim you don't even hold to that definition of death yourself, unless your beliefs are at odds with your fellow adherents.
And again, there's no human Jesus, or a divine Jesus, there's one single, both human and divine, Jesus.

3) And the sacrifice would involve at least the shame/loss of honor + death that being executed on the cross like a common criminal would involve.

That definition does not explain why someone is declared free from blame and is not in contradiction to God still demanding payment for sins. Christians believe God can declare someone free from blame precisely because Jesus took the blame in our stead.
4) So your definition of divine forgiveness would be "declaring you blameless without any consequences", the Christian definition would be "declaring you blameless because Another took on the blame in your stead".

1) If one could "clear up confusion"---it would not be a mystery---it would be clear.
If u want to--we can explore it---but Trinity is a bit slippery, one wrong move and you fall into heresy.

2) I am a Muslim---and Jesus' death/lack thereof holds no particular significance in Islam---Original sin is a Christian doctrine---not a Muslim one. (or a Jewish one) The reason we are exploring this topic is because its important to Christianity but I am agreeable to declaring that its a mystery and leave it at that.
In case u want to continue---
Jesus = Divine + Human
Jesus (D+H) dies
Die = cessation of biological activity.
The divine (God?) has a biological body (human) which ceases its activity (dies) temporarily but resumes its activity = Therefore God is not eternal right?
(also---Islam does not have "divine incarnation" or "Divine death"---which is why u are explaining it to me.....Islam does have explanations about human death---but that is not the topic of discussion here)
Does God die? (Deicide)
---IMO, the most honest Christian answer to this question would be that its a mystery.

3) So "Original sin" was so insignificant that God had to create a circumstance where humanity would commit another "sin against God" (Torture and Deicide) whereby God would finally be able to collectively "forgive" humanity?

4) Yes--to forgive would mean to declare blameless---this means the victim does not demand punishment. However, actions generate consequences which cannot be reversed. The exercise of human free-will is both a blessing and a responsibility.
(...our free-will operates within "time" so we cannot go back in time and undo our actions after feeling remorse.---The Quranic story of the 2 sons of Adam.)
Since free-will has this component of responsibility---actions and their consequences are the responsibility of those who commit them (with the exception of persons who cannot take full responsibility such as minors or the intellectually handicapped). Another(innocent person) cannot take that blame/responsibility. That would be unjust.

[siam]

Of course it diminishes punishment, for the one who repents. But punishment is still due, which means Someone else must take (or rather, has already has already taken) the punishment in your stead.

I would say justice is mainly (but not purely) punitive. What you call justice, the restorative aspect, is properly part of mercy in my opinion.

Do you see the love involved when a parent dies to save their children? Or when a spouse dies to save their significant other? How about when a fireman dies to save someone from burning alive in a house fire?

If the Jews reject what your religion says about Jesus, then they obviously reject the Quran as divine revelation, or Muhammed as God's prophet. They might concede that there are points of agreements between the two religions, such as the monotheism, and might even go so far as to agree that both religions believe in the same God, but ultimately they believe Muhammed was a false prophet who was either a liar/deceiver, deceived or mistaken himself, or delusional. And if they believe there's some truth in the Quran it's definitely not because it's a text that was divinely revealed by God.

In Christianity Justice is punitive therefore mercy/forgiveness requires an innocent third party to take a diminished punishment in your stead.

IMO, Justice without its balancing components of mercy and compassion would become too harsh and fall into oppression and become inhumane. Ethico-moral principles need to be balanced in order to function correctly---freedoms require restrictions, rights require responsibilities, Justice requires compassion and mercy.....It is this balance that can encourage towards peace. (salaam/shalom)

Suicide is not encouraged in Islam. That does not mean one needs to be a bystander---it means proper precautions for the preservation of life should be taken when helping a family member. One should refrain from being recklessly thoughtless.
When a fireman goes into a burning house---he is not reckless---proper precautions in the form of training and tools to deal with the situation have been taken. If despite these precautions the fireman dies in doing his duty---that is God's will.
However, the topic under discussion was God's love.

Jews who did so became Muslims
In any case, According to the Quran, Jews will go to heaven if they follow the Torah and what was given to them by God.
God is the creator of all humanity---not just one group of humanity. One God, creator of all humanity has given guidance to all humanity---in accordance with what suits them best. If they have chosen/accepted a guidance, they have the responsibility to follow it. Guidance is given to humanity to encourage the "virtues"/ethico-moral living ...and each group of humanity can compete with another in these virtues (to excel at being humane). As to "Truth"---God will sort it out.

[Christian3]

1) If one could "clear up confusion"---it would not be a mystery---it would be clear.
If u want to--we can explore it---but Trinity is a bit slippery, one wrong move and you fall into heresy.

2) I am a Muslim---and Jesus' death/lack thereof holds no particular significance in Islam---Original sin is a Christian doctrine---not a Muslim one. (or a Jewish one) The reason we are exploring this topic is because its important to Christianity but I am agreeable to declaring that its a mystery and leave it at that.
In case u want to continue---
Jesus = Divine + Human
Jesus (D+H) dies
Die = cessation of biological activity.
The divine (God?) has a biological body (human) which ceases its activity (dies) temporarily but resumes its activity = Therefore God is not eternal right?
(also---Islam does not have "divine incarnation" or "Divine death"---which is why u are explaining it to me.....Islam does have explanations about human death---but that is not the topic of discussion here)
Does God die? (Deicide)
---IMO, the most honest Christian answer to this question would be that its a mystery.

3) So "Original sin" was so insignificant that God had to create a circumstance where humanity would commit another "sin against God" (Torture and Deicide) whereby God would finally be able to collectively "forgive" humanity?

4) Yes--to forgive would mean to declare blameless---this means the victim does not demand punishment. However, actions generate consequences which cannot be reversed. The exercise of human free-will is both a blessing and a responsibility.
(...our free-will operates within "time" so we cannot go back in time and undo our actions after feeling remorse.---The Quranic story of the 2 sons of Adam.)
Since free-will has this component of responsibility---actions and their consequences are the responsibility of those who commit them (with the exception of persons who cannot take full responsibility such as minors or the intellectually handicapped). Another(innocent person) cannot take that blame/responsibility. That would be unjust.

You said "Original sin is a Christian doctrine---not a Muslim one."

Explain this verse from the Qur'an:

Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden) and get out of the state of (felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity among yourselves; on earth will be your dwelling place, and your means of livelihood for a time." (Surah 2:26)

Who slipped?

What did Satan do to make them slip?

[JonathanL]

1) If one could "clear up confusion"---it would not be a mystery---it would be clear.
If u want to--we can explore it---but Trinity is a bit slippery, one wrong move and you fall into heresy.

Notice I said some of the confusion, not all, or even most of it. Something being a mystery doesn't mean that there aren't at least some aspects of it that we can understand.

I'm up for exploring the doctrine of the Trinity a bit further if there's still something you want to discuss about it.

2) I am a Muslim---and Jesus' death/lack thereof holds no particular significance in Islam---Original sin is a Christian doctrine---not a Muslim one. (or a Jewish one) The reason we are exploring this topic is because its important to Christianity but I am agreeable to declaring that its a mystery and leave it at that.

The reason I brought up the fact that you're a muslim was to highlight the fact that you kept using a definition of death as "ceasing to exist" that neither your or my religion hold to and that you should have known that neither of us believed in. It makes you look disingenious, like you're trying to score a cheap point.

In case u want to continue---
Jesus = Divine + Human
Jesus (D+H) dies
Die = cessation of biological activity.
The divine (God?) has a biological body (human) which ceases its activity (dies) temporarily but resumes its activity = Therefore God is not eternal right?
(also---Islam does not have "divine incarnation" or "Divine death"---which is why u are explaining it to me.....Islam does have explanations about human death---but that is not the topic of discussion here)
Does God die? (Deicide)
---IMO, the most honest Christian answer to this question would be that its a mystery.

"Therefore God is not eternal" is where we disagree, as far as I can tell. To arrive at that conclusion you need to define dying as "ceasing to exist" and we've already established that that definition does not apply to physical death. When Jesus body died his spirit/soul went down into the land/abode of the dead/Sheol, whatever you want to call it. Jesus, who in nature is both human and divine did indeed experience a physical death.

So, if by God die you mean God as in the triune being, then no, God didn't die. If by God you mean one of the Persons making up that triune being, namely God the Son, then yes, God did die on the cross.

3) So "Original sin" was so insignificant that God had to create a circumstance where humanity would commit another "sin against God" (Torture and Deicide) whereby God would finally be able to collectively "forgive" humanity?

That would be a pretty uncharitable interpretation of what happened. First of all, the most important part is that Jesus gave up Himself willingly, and took on the sins of the world as an offering to God. Had it been His wish He could have easily avoided being put to death, by any number of conceivable means. The act of putting Jesus on the cross is only efficacious because it was the way Jesus chose to offer Himself up to God.

When a person is faced with his own sins is and recognizes how severe they are, and realizes how much they alienate him from God, the only proper response would be to submit to God and admit that God is completely just when He judges that person as deserving of punishment. What Jesus did was that he did that in our place, and took on the punishment that we deserved in our stead.

4) Yes--to forgive would mean to declare blameless---this means the victim does not demand punishment. However, actions generate consequences which cannot be reversed. The exercise of human free-will is both a blessing and a responsibility.
(...our free-will operates within "time" so we cannot go back in time and undo our actions after feeling remorse.---The Quranic story of the 2 sons of Adam.)
Since free-will has this component of responsibility---actions and their consequences are the responsibility of those who commit them (with the exception of persons who cannot take full responsibility such as minors or the intellectually handicapped). Another(innocent person) cannot take that blame/responsibility. That would be unjust.

To forgive means declare blameless, so far we agree. Christians say that we are declared blameless because Another took the punishment in our stead, Muslims say that God can forgive without demanding that someone else take the punishment in our place, is that correct?

In any case, under the Christian understanding the end result is still that the perpetrator is declared blameless, forgiven of his sins. There is nothing in the definition of "to forgive" that excludes the Christian understanding of it.

And just to make it clear, that does not mean that we as Christians think that when someone else commits a wrong against us personally, in order to forgive we have to punish someone else in that persons stead. Us forgiving those who have wronged us, and God forgiving those who have wronged Him/sinned against Him, are two different things, that work in different ways, because of how utterly different the two wronged parties are in either case.

Another person taking the blame/responsibility would in normal cases be impossible, since any normal person you pick out on the street would be burdened with so much sin that he won't even be able to pay off his own debt. It's not that taking on the blame/responsibility for another persons sin is unjust, but rather that his own sins are so great that taking on the responsibility of another person's debts on top of that is an utter impossibility.

But if someone would come that would be utterly blameless and Who is capable of taking on another person's, or even every person's sins, there is no logical or ethical/moral rule that prevents Him from doing so. If it was forced on Him (but imagine trying to force God!), or if He did it against His own will it would be unjust but the fact that it was all done freely, out of His great love for us, should be enough to shut the mouth of any sensible, reasonable person.

[JonathanL]

In Christianity Justice is punitive therefore mercy/forgiveness requires an innocent third party to take a diminished punishment in your stead.

Wrong again. It requires an innocent third party to take the full, undiminished punishment in your stead.

IMO, Justice without its balancing components of mercy and compassion would become too harsh and fall into oppression and become inhumane. Ethico-moral principles need to be balanced in order to function correctly---freedoms require restrictions, rights require responsibilities, Justice requires compassion and mercy.....It is this balance that can encourage towards peace. (salaam/shalom)

"Oppression", "inhumane" and "too harsh" are emotionally-laden words that serve no purpose when trying to evaluate the meaning of justice. Us trying to temper justice to be more palatable to our human sensibilities is not only wrongheaded, it's the height of arrogance. What is just is just regardless of whether we see it as too harsh, oppressive or inhumane.

As for "ethico-moral principles" needing to be balanced in order to function correctly, I would say that that depends. If we're talking about normal everyday life among other fellow members of society, then yes, balancing justice with compassion and mercy is definitely a necessity, because otherwise society would soon collapse.

Otherwise, if we're not talking about "Ethico-moral principles" in that context, but in the context of God's final judgement over your life, then it's not clear at all that mercy and compassion are part of God's justice, rather than being other aspects of God that need to be satisfied. In that situation it's not that God's justice needs to be tempered with compassion or mercy, but rather that God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful, and both aspects need to be fully satisfied. And Jesus sacrifice on the cross enabled both God's justice, and His mercy, to be fully satisfied.

Suicide is not encouraged in Islam. That does not mean one needs to be a bystander---it means proper precautions for the preservation of life should be taken when helping a family member. One should refrain from being recklessly thoughtless.
When a fireman goes into a burning house---he is not reckless---proper precautions in the form of training and tools to deal with the situation have been taken. If despite these precautions the fireman dies in doing his duty---that is God's will.
However, the topic under discussion was God's love.

Yes, the topic under discussion was God's love. Which is why I brought up human examples of sacrificial love, to show that if we praise a mother for dying to save her child (and any reasonable person should, unless their moral faculties are defective) then showing His love for us by taking on the punishment for our sins should be infinitely more praiseworthy.

In any case, in a situation where two (or more) people are in a perilous situation and one of them have the option to only save himself, or the people who are in the situation together with him, but has to make the choice between himself and the others, I would claim that the person who chooses to save the other person(s) is morally greater than the person who chooses to save his own skin, and deserves the greater praise.

Jews who did so became Muslims
In any case, According to the Quran, Jews will go to heaven if they follow the Torah and what was given to them by God.
God is the creator of all humanity---not just one group of humanity. One God, creator of all humanity has given guidance to all humanity---in accordance with what suits them best. If they have chosen/accepted a guidance, they have the responsibility to follow it. Guidance is given to humanity to encourage the "virtues"/ethico-moral living ...and each group of humanity can compete with another in these virtues (to excel at being humane). As to "Truth"---God will sort it out.

And at the end of the day, the Jews still reject Muhammed as a prophet, and the Quran as divine revelation.

[siam]

You said "Original sin is a Christian doctrine---not a Muslim one."

Explain this verse from the Qur'an:

Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden) and get out of the state of (felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity among yourselves; on earth will be your dwelling place, and your means of livelihood for a time." (Surah 2:26)

Who slipped?

What did Satan do to make them slip?

The verse is 2: 36

It is not a good idea to cut up the Quran and quote just a verse because it takes it out of context. It would be better to understand the whole Quranic story (as that would have answered your question.) and even better to read all the other stories and themes in the Quran as that would fill in the Quranic paradigm/worldview....however, to answer yr question....

Satan only has the power that human/humanity gives to it. Therefore, what did Satan do?...he tempted the human/Adam. It was a test of human free-will and the human chose to be tempted. (Guidance of God vs temptation of Satan)When Adam realized his error, he asked for forgiveness and God forgave him.
In verse 37 God most compassionate most merciful---teaches wisdom to Adam and promises future guidance to humanity.
So...Adam is sometimes understood as the first muslim (muslim=one who submits to God's will)

[siam]

1) Notice I said some of the confusion, not all, or even most of it. Something being a mystery doesn't mean that there aren't at least some aspects of it that we can understand.
I'm up for exploring the doctrine of the Trinity a bit further if there's still something you want to discuss about it.

2) The reason I brought up the fact that you're a muslim was to highlight the fact that you kept using a definition of death as "ceasing to exist" that neither your or my religion hold to and that you should have known that neither of us believed in. It makes you look disingenious, like you're trying to score a cheap point.


3) "Therefore God is not eternal" is where we disagree, as far as I can tell. To arrive at that conclusion you need to define dying as "ceasing to exist" and we've already established that that definition does not apply to physical death. When Jesus body died his spirit/soul went down into the land/abode of the dead/Sheol, whatever you want to call it. Jesus, who in nature is both human and divine did indeed experience a physical death.

4) So, if by God die you mean God as in the triune being, then no, God didn't die. If by God you mean one of the Persons making up that triune being, namely God the Son, then yes, God did die on the cross.

5) That would be a pretty uncharitable interpretation of what happened. First of all, the most important part is that Jesus gave up Himself willingly, and took on the sins of the world as an offering to God. Had it been His wish He could have easily avoided being put to death, by any number of conceivable means. The act of putting Jesus on the cross is only efficacious because it was the way Jesus chose to offer Himself up to God.

When a person is faced with his own sins is and recognizes how severe they are, and realizes how much they alienate him from God, the only proper response would be to submit to God and admit that God is completely just when He judges that person as deserving of punishment. What Jesus did was that he did that in our place, and took on the punishment that we deserved in our stead.


6) To forgive means declare blameless, so far we agree. Christians say that we are declared blameless because Another took the punishment in our stead, Muslims say that God can forgive without demanding that someone else take the punishment in our place, is that correct?

In any case, under the Christian understanding the end result is still that the perpetrator is declared blameless, forgiven of his sins. There is nothing in the definition of "to forgive" that excludes the Christian understanding of it.

And just to make it clear, that does not mean that we as Christians think that when someone else commits a wrong against us personally, in order to forgive we have to punish someone else in that persons stead. Us forgiving those who have wronged us, and God forgiving those who have wronged Him/sinned against Him, are two different things, that work in different ways, because of how utterly different the two wronged parties are in either case.

Another person taking the blame/responsibility would in normal cases be impossible, since any normal person you pick out on the street would be burdened with so much sin that he won't even be able to pay off his own debt. It's not that taking on the blame/responsibility for another persons sin is unjust, but rather that his own sins are so great that taking on the responsibility of another person's debts on top of that is an utter impossibility.

But if someone would come that would be utterly blameless and Who is capable of taking on another person's, or even every person's sins, there is no logical or ethical/moral rule that prevents Him from doing so. If it was forced on Him (but imagine trying to force God!), or if He did it against His own will it would be unjust but the fact that it was all done freely, out of His great love for us, should be enough to shut the mouth of any sensible, reasonable person.

1) Sometimes---in these types of discussions, positions can become unnecessarily adversarial. But actually Islam has a lot in common with Christianity (as well as a few differences.)
Though we may see/understand "God" differently...with the Muslim position that God is One. In Islamic philosophy, the use of human language to define God/divine is exercised with caution.
The Tao te Ching expresses this idea well....
The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao
the name that can be named is not the eternal name....
...and...
Tao is beyond words and beyond understanding
Words may be used to speak of it but they cannot contain it.
....and....
It is beyond "is" and "is not"
Therefore, In one sense God is easy to understand---God is one
but in another way---since God cannot be confined to definitions and language, God is also a "mystery".
that is why Muslims have the 99 "names"----the 99 being the more important concept (since the "names" can vary) the use of "99" is so as to not confine the concept of God, but leave it open-ended (to use 100 would have been too definitive)

What is the Christian understanding of "mystery" as pertaining to God.

2) The Islamic position is....All of creation is finite, only God is infinite. All creation is from God and will return to God. This does not mean that creation is therefore, God. The Quran is a revelation(sign) from God as is creation.
A Muslim could say Jesus Christ (pbuh) is a revelation(sign) from God that returns to God---but that does not make him God.
Therefore a human death has no impact on God's existence nor does the finite-ness of creation. God is independent of all his creation.

3) As I see it---"God" has to "die" in order for incarnation to be necessary---otherwise any human sacrifice would have worked---but if God were to "die" then God cannot be "Eternal".

4) So you are saying that it was not God that dies but "Son of God" (one of a third?)

5) Jesus offered himself to God?...So did the son of Prophet Abraham. But...God prevented it.

6) Good---we agree on something.
Islam does not have "original sin" God forgives Prophet Adam therefore there is no reason for incarnation + suffering +death by/of God.
In Islam there is a difference between Divine Justice and human Justice---but this difference is about human limitations---Humans cannot see/know the intentions of the criminal/perpetrator unless articulated by the perp/criminal or inferred/speculated by an observer. God can see/know everything. Human intentions are clear to God.

[siam]

1) Wrong again. It requires an innocent third party to take the full, undiminished punishment in your stead.

2) "Oppression", "inhumane" and "too harsh" are emotionally-laden words that serve no purpose when trying to evaluate the meaning of justice. Us trying to temper justice to be more palatable to our human sensibilities is not only wrongheaded, it's the height of arrogance. What is just is just regardless of whether we see it as too harsh, oppressive or inhumane.

As for "ethico-moral principles" needing to be balanced in order to function correctly, I would say that that depends. If we're talking about normal everyday life among other fellow members of society, then yes, balancing justice with compassion and mercy is definitely a necessity, because otherwise society would soon collapse.

Otherwise, if we're not talking about "Ethico-moral principles" in that context, but in the context of God's final judgement over your life, then it's not clear at all that mercy and compassion are part of God's justice, rather than being other aspects of God that need to be satisfied. In that situation it's not that God's justice needs to be tempered with compassion or mercy, but rather that God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful, and both aspects need to be fully satisfied. And Jesus sacrifice on the cross enabled both God's justice, and His mercy, to be fully satisfied.



3) Yes, the topic under discussion was God's love. Which is why I brought up human examples of sacrificial love, to show that if we praise a mother for dying to save her child (and any reasonable person should, unless their moral faculties are defective) then showing His love for us by taking on the punishment for our sins should be infinitely more praiseworthy.

In any case, in a situation where two (or more) people are in a perilous situation and one of them have the option to only save himself, or the people who are in the situation together with him, but has to make the choice between himself and the others, I would claim that the person who chooses to save the other person(s) is morally greater than the person who chooses to save his own skin, and deserves the greater praise.



4) And at the end of the day, the Jews still reject Muhammed as a prophet, and the Quran as divine revelation.

1) OK
Christian (Divine) Justice = "innocent third party to take the full, undiminished punishment in your stead."

2) In the Quranic context Justice is an important theme because the goal of Islam is peace (salaam) and this is done through the tool of law/justice which is about protecting (God-given) rights and the discharge of (God-given) responsibilities. Oppression is therefore an injustice because it takes away the God-given right to free-will.
Oppression (definition)
op·pres·sion | \ ə-ˈpre-shən \
Definition of oppression
1a: unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power
the continuing oppression of the … underclasses
— H. A. Daniels
b: something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power
unfair taxes and other oppressions
2: a sense of being weighed down in body or mind : DEPRESSION
an oppression of spirits

Without compassion and mercy, law can become an unjust exercise of power---a tool of oppression
Islam is a religion of "law"---in particular, law based on ethical/moral principles founded on the idea that all humanity is of equivalent value. Therefore these are not "emotionally laden words" with no purpose---They serve a very important purpose in the formation of the Islamic/Quranic paradigm/world-view. The Islamic understanding of "religion" is that it is a way/path/guidance. The value of religion is not in its label but its content.

God is most Compassionate, most Merciful and most Just. Mercy and Justice are attributes of God---but do not require/need "satisfaction"....that is, God has no needs---God is independent of humanity/creation but humanity/creation is dependent on God.

3) In the Islamic/Quranic context God does not need to sacrifice---God has no needs. God is independent of his creation.

In any case, in a situation where two (or more) people are in a perilous situation and one of them have the option to only save himself, or the people who are in the situation together with him, but has to make the choice between himself and the others, I would claim that the person who chooses to save the other person(s) is morally greater than the person who chooses to save his own skin, and deserves the greater praise.
---this is an interesting point
Islamic ethico-morality is not black and white so while the taking of life is generally not permissible (haram) it can be considered under special circumstances with restrictions. In the situation above we need to consider 3 Islamic principles ---the preservation of life is a responsibility, all humanity (human lives) is of equivalent value---none superior or inferior to another, and God gives life and takes life. If a healthy person decides to donate all his organs to save the lives of others at the expense of his own, it might be a heroic decision---but not an ethical one.
If, in a group of people stranded on a cliff, one healthy person decides to allow the weak, the minors, and the injured to be rescued first, and this delay causes the cliff ledge to weaken and unexpectedly fall, leading to his death---then his decision would have been both heroic and ethical and his death the will of God.
When flying there is the announcement that the oxygen masks must be put on oneself first and then put on the child---it might seem counter-intuitive to a parent but this would be the ethical thing/right thing to do.

4) ....and that makes me unhappy---but the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. The Jews have been given their way and law---and if they have chosen it of their own free will---it is their responsibility to follow it.
God is One and we are all from God and will return to God.

[Christian3]

The verse is 2: 36

It is not a good idea to cut up the Quran and quote just a verse because it takes it out of context. It would be better to understand the whole Quranic story (as that would have answered your question.) and even better to read all the other stories and themes in the Quran as that would fill in the Quranic paradigm/worldview....however, to answer yr question....

Satan only has the power that human/humanity gives to it. Therefore, what did Satan do?...he tempted the human/Adam. It was a test of human free-will and the human chose to be tempted. (Guidance of God vs temptation of Satan)When Adam realized his error, he asked for forgiveness and God forgave him.
In verse 37 God most compassionate most merciful---teaches wisdom to Adam and promises future guidance to humanity.
So...Adam is sometimes understood as the first muslim (muslim=one who submits to God's will)

When some Muslims told me that the Qur'an does not support the concept of original sin, I checked it out, reading relevant verses and reading commentaries.

Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden) and get out of the state of (felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity among yourselves; on earth will be your dwelling place, and your means of livelihood for a time." (Surah 2:36)

This verse says that when Adam sinned they were thrown out of the garden. This means that we all suffer the consequences of their sin because we were born out of the garden and given a death sentence.

This is the first sin or original sin.

My point is that the Qur'an does support the concept of original sin.

[siam]

When some Muslims told me that the Qur'an does not support the concept of original sin, I checked it out, reading relevant verses and reading commentaries.

Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden) and get out of the state of (felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down all (ye people) with enmity among yourselves; on earth will be your dwelling place, and your means of livelihood for a time." (Surah 2:36)

This verse says that when Adam sinned they were thrown out of the garden. This means that we all suffer the consequences of their sin because we were born out of the garden and given a death sentence.

This is the first sin or original sin.

My point is that the Qur'an does support the concept of original sin.

relevant verses? plural? ....so you checked out the whole Quranic story of Adam which spans several verses and a couple of Surahs?
Do you want me to quote that story and go over it with you?

[Christian3]

relevant verses? plural? ....so you checked out the whole Quranic story of Adam which spans several verses and a couple of Surahs?
Do you want me to quote that story and go over it with you?

Sure, go ahead and do it.

[siam]

Surah 20 verses 112 -123
112)But he who works deeds of righteousness, and has faith, will have no fear of harm nor of any curtailment (of what is his due).
113)Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).
114)High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth! Be not in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."
115)We had already, beforehand, taken the covenant of Adam, but he forgot: and We found on his part no firm resolve.
116)When We said to the angels, "Prostrate yourselves to Adam", they prostrated themselves, but not Iblis: he refused.
117)Then We said: "O Adam! verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife: so let him not get you both out of the Garden, so that thou art landed in misery.
118)"There is therein (enough provision) for thee not to go hungry nor to go naked,
119)"Nor to suffer from thirst, nor from the sun's heat."
120)But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"
121)In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.
122)But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.
123)He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

Sura 2 verses 30 -39
30)Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
31)And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right.
32)They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
33)He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
34)And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
35)We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
36)Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
37)Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
38)We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
39)"But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

Sura 7 11-18 (Story of Satan) 19-25 (Story of Adam)
Getting too long---so look it up.

The story in Surah 20 explains the purpose of the story of Adam---that it is a warning and a reminder. The story then continues that Adam/human was also warned beforehand but forgot and so fell into error. But God is most forgiving, most merciful and so gives guidance to Adam/Human.
Surah 2 tells the story from a more universal angle with Adam representing humanity. Adam/humanity is/are created as "Khalifa"/Trustees for God's creations on earth. In order to discharge this responsibility, humanity is given free-will---but as the Angels observe, this gives humanity the potential to "shed blood and cause mischief". God then teaches knowledge to humanity and puts them in the garden. Here humanity exercise their free-will and make a choice (they make the wrong choice)
God forgives their error and teaches them wisdom and sends them to earth with the promise of further guidance to all humanity.

Note---there is no talking snake, eve, apple, or "original sin".

***I used Yusuf ali translation---for those who want to double check....
https://legacy.quran.com/2

[Christian3]

Surah 20 verses 112 -123
112)But he who works deeds of righteousness, and has faith, will have no fear of harm nor of any curtailment (of what is his due).
113)Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).
114)High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth! Be not in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."
115)We had already, beforehand, taken the covenant of Adam, but he forgot: and We found on his part no firm resolve.
116)When We said to the angels, "Prostrate yourselves to Adam", they prostrated themselves, but not Iblis: he refused.
117)Then We said: "O Adam! verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife: so let him not get you both out of the Garden, so that thou art landed in misery.
118)"There is therein (enough provision) for thee not to go hungry nor to go naked,
119)"Nor to suffer from thirst, nor from the sun's heat."
120)But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"
121)In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.
122)But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.
123)He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

Sura 2 verses 30 -39
30)Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."
31)And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right.
32)They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."
33)He said: "O Adam! Tell them their names." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"
34)And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.
35)We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
36)Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
37)Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
38)We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
39)"But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

Sura 7 11-18 (Story of Satan) 19-25 (Story of Adam)
Getting too long---so look it up.

The story in Surah 20 explains the purpose of the story of Adam---that it is a warning and a reminder. The story then continues that Adam/human was also warned beforehand but forgot and so fell into error. But God is most forgiving, most merciful and so gives guidance to Adam/Human.
Surah 2 tells the story from a more universal angle with Adam representing humanity. Adam/humanity is/are created as "Khalifa"/Trustees for God's creations on earth. In order to discharge this responsibility, humanity is given free-will---but as the Angels observe, this gives humanity the potential to "shed blood and cause mischief". God then teaches knowledge to humanity and puts them in the garden. Here humanity exercise their free-will and make a choice (they make the wrong choice)
God forgives their error and teaches them wisdom and sends them to earth with the promise of further guidance to all humanity.

Note---there is no talking snake, eve, apple, or "original sin".

***I used Yusuf ali translation---for those who want to double check....
https://legacy.quran.com/2

[Same Hakeem]

Actually, no.

You die because of your sins, you live because of faith. Even unbelief in itself is a sin.

And the issue isn't that God needs to "kill in order to soothe his anger", the issue is that the wages of sin is death. And there's nothing unjust of God to require that we live perfectly, as long as He also provides a way for us to be forgiven for our inevitable transgressions, which He does.

You writing "You die because of your sins, you live because of faith. Even unbelief in itself is a sin" is true because the Bible in Ezk 18:4 says "the soul that sins shall die" and 2 Kings 14:6 says "every man is to die for his own sin" and therefore, Jesus could not die for men because Jesus was sinless.

[37818]

You writing "You die because of your sins, you live because of faith. Even unbelief in itself is a sin" is true because the Bible in Ezk 18:4 says "the soul that sins shall die" and 2 Kings 14:6 says "every man is to die for his own sin" and therefore, Jesus could not die for men because Jesus was sinless.

God's justice requires just payment. And so basied on your argument we would all perish without hope.

Romans 6:23, ". . . For the wages of sin is death; . . ." Know that no amount of good deeds satifies the debt of death do to sin.

Revelation 20:12, ". . . and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. . . ."