The misuse of science by William Lane Craig and othe Christian apologists.

[shunyadragon]

But you did mistakenly misrepresent Thomas on exactly this point (infinite dimension of time in both directions) here in this thread and elsewhere. I know because I have repeatedly corrected you on exactly this point.

If you did it is non-issue in this thread. I prefer you address the specifics and quote me in the other thread.

And yet your own view on this point is in fact based on your belief in the infallible Baha'i scriptures and not on science, correct?

It was not your chosen topic for this thread, but it is in fact the basis of your belief in the topic of this thread, correct?

Please address this issue in the other thread. I do not consider my belief as necessarily factual. Beliefs are not objective 'fact based' in my view.

[robrecht]

Please address this issue in the other thread. I do not consider my belief as necessarily factual.

I may do that at some point, time permitting, but I also reserve the right to address it wherever you bring it up, as you did here and elsewhere. You are, of course, free to respond (or continue not to respond) wherever you like.

[element771]

No, he has no responded concerning whether he agrees with my view or not.

It is not a microcosm of anything.

No, it is not. You said he responded, and I say that he has not indicated one way or another.

If he chooses to respond one way or another it is best that you let him speak for himself if he chooses to do so.

Please cite where I said that he doesn't agree with you.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Sorry, it is most likely my fault. I have a feeling that if we were speaking to one another, it would go much quicker...especially over a beer.

I can assure you, I would greatly enjoy that.

X=2 if X=the number of apples on possesses

There is a scenario in the real world which a person could be in possession of 2 apples that this would describe. It doesn't need to be described by any other ideas like someone has a debt of 2 apples (for -2). It is an idea that can be represented in reality without any other ideas attached to it. Just a person with 2 apples.

Except that it does have another idea attached to it: the concept of possession. Your example is just as reliant upon the abstract notion of "possession" as the -2 example is reliant upon the abstract notion of "debt."

Ok...let's flip this around as we seem to be talking in circles. Maybe approaching it another way could prove a path forward.

Can you describe to me a situation how an actual infinity could exist in reality?

Sure. If space is continuous, then actual infinites must exist in reality.

If space is continuous, then any two distinct positions in space are separated by an actually infinite number of other distinct positions in space, regardless of the path chosen between those two points.

[shunyadragon]

I can assure you, I would greatly enjoy that.

Except that it does have another idea attached to it: the concept of possession. Your example is just as reliant upon the abstract notion of "possession" as the -2 example is reliant upon the abstract notion of "debt."

Sure. If space is continuous, then actual infinites must exist in reality.

If space is continuous, then any two distinct positions in space are separated by an actually infinite number of other distinct positions in space, regardless of the path chosen between those two points.

I agree, but object to the use of the word "exist," because of the connotation of the problem with this in your previous post:

What would you say is the difference between these two things? Presumably, we're not talking about numbers "existing" in the Platonist sense. And, if we are not, then the only manner in which numbers "exist" is as a description of the real world. If infinite numbers describe the real world, then they exist in exactly the same way that the Natural numbers exist.

I believe we are not talking of "exist" in the Platonist sense. I prefer as I previously described, "Science uses 'actual infinities' as well as all math as descriptive of our physical existence and not as "existing" in our physical existence.

I believe we agree, and I may be being too picky about terminology.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

I believe we agree, and I may be being too picky about terminology.

Yep, we agree. As we've been saying throughout, I am referring to a Nominalist view of mathematical ontology.

[element771]

Please cite where I said that he doesn't agree with you.

I am tired of this crap. Is there any recourse that can be taken against Shuny for constantly lying about things that I have said?

[robrecht]

I am tired of this crap. Is there any recourse that can be taken against Shuny for constantly lying about things that I have said?

Report him and provide proof he is lying, if you like, but also realize he is an older guy in need of mercy and compassion just like the rest of us. One day, we may all be in need of someone else's patience and forgiveness. Don't sweat it. Just be content in the knowledge that you've done your best to witness to the truth to the best of your ability.

[shunyadragon]

I am tired of this crap. Is there any recourse that can be taken against Shuny for constantly lying about things that I have said?

Please cite specifically where you 'think' I lied. I do not believe I lied. I did respond to this.

He already responded.

No, he has not responded concerning whether he agrees with my view or not. Again, and again . . . I do not believe you can speak for BP.

You responded:

This is a microcosm of your problem.

Please cite where I said that he doesn't agree with you.

Where have I lied?

[shunyadragon]

Report him and provide proof he is lying, if you like, but also realize he is an older guy in need of mercy and compassion just like the rest of us. One day, we may all be in need of someone else's patience and forgiveness. Don't sweat it. Just be content in the knowledge that you've done your best to witness to the truth to the best of your ability.

You'r over reacting to the situation. No need for mercy, compassion, nor patience and forgiveness. I did not lie.

[element771]

Please cite specifically where you 'think' I lied. I do not believe I lied. I did respond to this.

You responded:

Where have I lied?

I said that he responded when he said that wasn't reading your posts.

As usual, you misrepresent what I say and respond that he hasn't responded concerning whether he agreed with you or not. And that I can't speak for him.

I then ask...

Where did I say that he didn't agree with you?

You don't answer.

Ask again, still no answer.

Normally I wouldn't continue down this road but this is the second or third time that you have done this. When this has happened before, I repeatedly ask you to provide proof that I said what you are claiming that I said. You didn't. You run and hide because you can't admit that you are wrong. So I am forced to weigh the options...

You are either lying so that you can make a point or can't comprehend what people type.

Since it is apparent that you can read and comprehend things, I am forced to conclude the former.

[shunyadragon]

I said that he responded when he said that wasn't reading your posts.

As usual, you misrepresent what I say and respond that he hasn't responded concerning whether he agreed with you or not. And that I can't speak for him.

I then ask...

Where did I say that he didn't agree with you?

You don't answer.

Ask again, still no answer.

Normally I wouldn't continue down this road but this is the second or third time that you have done this. When this has happened before, I repeatedly ask you to provide proof that I said what you are claiming that I said. You didn't. You run and hide because you can't admit that you are wrong. So I am forced to weigh the options...

You are either lying so that you can make a point or can't comprehend what people type.

Since it is apparent that you can read and comprehend things, I am forced to conclude the former.

The fact that you stated that BP responded as conclusive, and I disagreed clearly that he had not concluded whether he agreed with me or not, until he later made that clear. I never stated that you said, 'PB did not agree with me.' There is no lie involved here.

You did rant emotionally that everyone considered me a problem, which led down the road into the rabbit hole of Alice and Wonderland. If your emotional assertion was true, than PB would consider me a problem and disagree with me, and that was not the case.

It is interesting that you continue to think it is everyone else but EVERYONE here has the same complaint about conversing with you. And now you are in a pickle because you can't just say that the reason for our complaints is that we are ignorant Christians.

You also said:

The vast majority of those who have interacted with you in a more than just casual way. Tass seems to be last person in your corner.

BP hasn't even read your arguments.

Your emotional assumption here, 'Tassman seems to be the last person in your corner,' leads me where concerning whether you considered PB supported my view or not?

No lie involved here, your emotional rants led yourself down Alice's rabbit hole, and caused a lot of confusion not meaningful to the thread.

[element771]

Your emotional assumption here, 'Tassman seems to be the last person in your corner,' leads me where concerning whether you considered PB supported my view or not?

Actually, that is a fair point.

My apologies as I can see how my post lead to your interpretation.

I am sorry for insisting that you lied regarding BP and what I wrote. I was wrong.

[Bisto]

(...)
My points in this thread is clear and not based on me being a Baha'i apologist. They are based on my neutral view of the reality and limits of math and science that cannot be used to justify theological arguments.
(...)

Random thought here (though a Jesus quoting the First Commandment might disagree on the randomness of it):

Could things like properties of the number One or set theory have theological implications for the differences between Monotheism and Polytheism? (I haven't thought or read anything about it, it just came to my mind.)

[Bisto]

You'r over reacting to the situation. No need for mercy, compassion, nor patience and forgiveness. I did not lie.

Don't we all need those? I know I do.