Originally posted by rogue06
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJoseph was a "secret disciple" - He was a wealthy man
Pilate had declared Jesus innocent.
He kinda did. "Joseph of Arimathea was a respected member of the council...."
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Originally posted by psstein View PostGary, you might be interested in Maurice Casey's The Aramaic Sources of Mark's Gospel, which argues that there are Aramaic sources, written by eyewitnesses, behind the Gospel of Mark.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostHe must be experiencing a severe case of amnesia because all of these questions were answered exhaustively in his "The Empty Tomb is most likely not Historical" thread.Last edited by Gary; 07-21-2016, 04:24 PM.
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Here. Since I mispelled the scholar's name I'll cut you a break and give you Sparko's FULL CONTEXT of the quote you mangled.
Originally posted by Sparko View Postah thanks.
Hey I have an idea. since you like this NT scholar and consider her authoritative, why don't we go ahead and take her entire quote, in CONTEXT?
Gee, Gary, she seems to actually believe the gospel stories are accurate and that Jesus was not buried in a trench.
Thanks, buddy!Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Gary View PostDo you believe that Arimathea acted as a "private party" when he asked Pilate for the body or do you believe that he asked for the body as an agent of the Sanhedrin?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostIs this position a scholarly consensus? A majority scholarly position? A minority position? Or just one scholar's view?
He's building off Matthew Black's work on Aramaic in the Gospels and Acts.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostAnd as both you and I hammered on throughout that thread, the burial a) matches what we know of Jewish customs, b) fulfills the criterion of embarrassment, and c) fulfills the criterion of coherence.
I'd rather start discussing something more interesting on this website, honestly. Maybe somebody can argue with me about the dates of the gospels.
The fact is this: Christians have no good evidence that any eyewitness to the death of Jesus and the subsequent events thereafter was still alive when the first gospel was written in circa 70 AD. Therefore it is very possible that the Empty Tomb story, which contradicts first century burial practices with a very bizarre, contorted tale of a secret disciple (who is simultaneously a rich member of the Sanhedrin) providing Jesus with a rock mausoleum, is a theological embellishment (fiction) just as Matthew's story of dead saints roaming the streets of the city is considered by most scholars (including evangelical NT scholar, Mike Licona) to be fiction.
Without the Empty Tomb, conservative Christians are left with tales of Jesus' grieving, emotionally distraught, uneducated, peasant friends and family having ghost sightings as proof of this very extra-ordinary supernatural tale.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostNT scholars and even Stein believe that the claim that Arimathea was "a disciple of Jesus" is most likely an embellishment.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostFirst, his name was Joseph. The "of Arimathea" was a qualifier. Second, it's a dumb question. It's likely Pilate knew him as a rich man who was a "ruler of the Jews", and surrendered the body to him without asking.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Gary View PostTherefore it is very possible that the Empty Tomb story, which contradicts first century burial practices with a very bizarre,
contorted tale of a secret disciple (who is simultaneously a rich member of the Sanhedrin)
providing Jesus with a rock mausoleum,The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Have to chime back in for this.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostJoseph of Arimathea obviously didn't agree with the assessment that Jesus was a "criminal messianic pretender." The fact that Matthew expressly describes him as being a "disciple of Jesus" ought to have been a clue.
As for the "whole Sanhedrin" it is likely that this was a quorum or something along those lines, very possibly called together by the chief priests in charge of the prosecution among like-minded members, rather than every single member.
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostThat's right. Since Pilate considered Jesus innocent, he had hesitation about checking that he was actually dead before releasing his body out of Roman custody.
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions all based on claims in the very book under scrutiny in this discussion for historical accuracy.
Logical fallacy: Begging the Question.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJesus was no ordinary "peasant".
Surely you're not claiming that he couldn't be both. If he was a rich member of the Council, it's no surprise that he would keep his disciple status secret.
Which was only needed for a few days.
For all we know, Jesus was of no more significance to the Romans than is some loud-mouth fundie, conspiracy-spewing, preacher from a small rural town in Idaho to the federal government of the United States.
The Jewish authorities didn't like Jesus behavior in the Temple in overturning the money changers. Asked the Romans to snuff him out. The Romans obliged. Done.
Jesus didn't become a "big deal" until Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome or Antioch in 70-75 AD, after Jerusalem had been leveled and most of its occupants (and therefore eyewitnesses) were either dead or in hiding in far away lands, and therefore were unable/unwilling to rebut "Mark's" sensationalist claims.Last edited by Gary; 07-21-2016, 05:09 PM.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJesus was no ordinary "peasant".
Surely you're not claiming that he couldn't be both. If he was a rich member of the Council, it's no surprise that he would keep his disciple status secret.
Which was only needed for a few days.
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