Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

[Sparko]

I don't recall seeing a comment from Sparko on Magness' quote (and at the moment, I am too lazy to go hunting for it), but I do remember seeing yours---without any explanation for your accusation.

Here is Magness' quote again. Please point out my "error" in using her quote:



---Jodi Magness, NT scholar

wow Gary. wow. I quoted her in context which blows your selective quote out of the water, and you pretend like it never happened, even after DesertBerean quoted my post in full AGAIN! This is why I think you are dishonest. I hope your readers appreciate how dishonest you are. What a tool.

[DesertBerean]

I don't recall seeing a comment from Sparko on Magness' quote (and at the moment, I am too lazy to go hunting for it), but I do remember seeing yours---without any explanation for your accusation.

Here is Magness' quote again. Please point out my "error" in using her quote:



---Jodi Magness, NT scholar

Adrift told you, since (by your own admission) you were too lazy to look for it. Post #15. You will IMMEDIATELY see that your quote was out of context.

[Sparko]

here for lazy bones:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post347004

[Adrift]

I don't recall seeing a comment from Sparko on Magness' quote (and at the moment, I am too lazy to go hunting for it), but I do remember seeing yours---without any explanation for your accusation.

So you're saying you didn't see Sparko's post, you didn't see me telling you what the post number was, and you didn't see the other one or two times Desert commented on it? Yeah, laziness isn't the problem, you were just hoping everyone would forget about it so that no one would focus on another of your big, dumb blunders. You're such a dishonest hack.

[Adrift]

I am still deeply gratified by your attention.

:)

Riiight. My attention had you running away crying a couple months ago.

[psstein]

Jodi Magness is not a NT scholar. She's an archeologist and is very well known for her work at Qumran.

[Gary]

Yakkety yak - don't talk back....

I'm still...

Grown men acting like little children. Shame on us...

[DesertBerean]

Jodi Magness is not a NT scholar. She's an archeologist and is very well known for her work at Qumran.

I stand corrected.

[Gary]

Jodi Magness is not a NT scholar. She's an archeologist and is very well known for her work at Qumran.

Thank you for the correction. She is NOT a NT scholar, but is an expert in the burial practices of first century Palestine, and therefore, well-qualified to comment on the probability of a Galilean peasant being buried in a rock mausoleum versus a dirt trench.

Could a poor, first century, Galilean peasant have been buried in his rich friend's rock mausoleum? Answer: Yes. Is it the most probable scenario? Answer: No.

[Cow Poke]

Thank you for the correction. She is NOT a NT scholar, but is an expert in the burial practices of first century Palestine, and therefore, well-qualified to comment on the probability of a Galilean peasant being buried in a rock mausoleum versus a dirt trench.

Jesus was NOT just a "Galilean peasant" - he had RICH FRIENDS.

Could a poor, first century, Galilean peasant have been buried in his rich friend's rock mausoleum? Answer: Yes.

Actually, considering He had RICH FRIENDS..... Absolutely!

Is it the most probable scenario? Answer: No.

Is Gary good at making up goofy scenarios to try to force his own conclusions? Answer: Indubitably!

[DesertBerean]

Thank you for the correction. She is NOT a NT scholar, but is an expert in the burial practices of first century Palestine, and therefore, well-qualified to comment on the probability of a Galilean peasant being buried in a rock mausoleum versus a dirt trench.

Could a poor, first century, Galilean peasant have been buried in his rich friend's rock mausoleum? Answer: Yes. Is it the most probable scenario? Answer: No.

Oh Lord. There are so many things wrong with this. Bye.

[Gary]

ah thanks.

Hey I have an idea. since you like this NT scholar and consider her authoritative, why don't we go ahead and take her entire quote, in CONTEXT?

https://www.sbl-site.org/publication....sxXSfnIY.dpuf

Gee, Gary, she seems to actually believe the gospel stories are accurate and that Jesus was not buried in a trench.

Thanks, buddy!

I did not see this comment. Believe me or not, I don't care. I didn't see it, but I will be more than happy to comment on it now.

Does Dr. Magness believe that the Gospel accounts accurately reflect Jewish burials in the first century? Answer: Yes! Does this mean that Dr. Magness believes that every detail in the Gospel accounts are facts, including that Jesus was buried in the rock mausoleum of a man named Joseph of Arimathea? Answer: No, not just by reading this one article. Maybe she makes this statement somewhere else, but in the article, she is simply assuming the historicity of the entire gospel story to demonstrate that the gospels had their Jewish burial traditions correct.

Does the fact that the gospel authors wrote stories that correctly describe first century Jewish burial customs prove that all the other historical claims are correct? Answer: No! We already know from Matthew's gospel that embellishments ARE present in these stories. The fact that Jewish burial customs are correctly described is only proof that the authors were aware of first century Jewish burial customs NOT proof that there really was a secret follower of Jesus named J. of A. who talked the Sanhedrin into giving the hated little Galilean a proper, rich man's burial!!!!

Sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's go up to the beginning of Magness' article and see what she says about the historical reliability of the Gospels:

"We have no contemporary accounts of the death and burial of Jesus. Our closest sources (in time) are the canonical Gospels, specifically the Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke), which are thought to have been composed about 30-50 years after Jesus' death. Although the canonical Gospels are not accurate in every detail, most scholars agree they contain some historical information." (emphasis, Gary's)

- See more at: https://www.sbl-site.org/publication....GwJTaDac.dpuf

"The gospels contain "some" historical information." Wow! That sure is a ringing endorsement for the accuracy of these four books! Not "entirely" or "mostly" or even "50% of the time"! No folks, this expert states that the four gospels contain SOME historical information.

Good grief.

Then Dr. Magness says this: "The Gospel of Mark (15:42-46) describes as follows the death and burial of Jesus: "When the evening had come..."

Now, does that sound like the good Dr. is claiming that the details in Mark chapter 15 are historical facts???? NO! She is simply stating what the book in question SAYS. She could have been reading Alice in Wonderland and done the same thing. Would that mean that Dr. Magness believes that the events described in Lewis Carroll's book are all historical facts???

Of course not.

Good grief.

A few paragraphs later, Dr. Magness says: "The Gospel accounts provide an accurate description of Joseph of Arimathea burying Jesus' body in a loculus in his family's rock-cut tomb."

Is Dr. Magness stating that it is historical fact that Jesus was buried in J. of A.'s family rock-cut tomb? Once again, Nooooooo! She is simply stating that the author of the gospel has correctly described how a body would be buried in a rock-hewn tomb in first century Palestine. Is this proof that the author of the Gospel was familiar with first century Jewish burial practices? Yes! Is it proof that this particular first century burial actually took place? No. That is NOT what she is saying.

In a latter paragraph, Dr. Magness, says this:

"According to the Gospel accounts, Jesus died on the eve of the Sabbath (late Friday afternoon), just before sundown. For Jesus to be buried in accordance with Jewish law, he had to be buried before the Sabbath started; otherwise, it would have been necessary to wait until Saturday night, thereby exceeding the 24-hour time limit. Joseph of Arimathea, a wealthy follower of Jesus, was concerned to ensure that Jesus was buried in accordance with Jewish law. Jesus came from a poor family that presumably could not afford a rock-cut tomb."

What are the first FIVE words in this paragraph? Answer: "ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL ACCOUNTS..." Dr. Magness is simply going with the story. She is NOT making a pronouncment on the veracity/historicity of the story itself. She is only commenting on the accuracy of the Jewish burial accounts within the story.

Had enough shaming, or must I go on?

Of COURSE I'll go on!

Here is more from Dr. Magness in a later paragraph: "Although the Gospel accounts of the death and burial of Jesus might not be completely accurate from an historical point of view, they are consistent with our literary and archaeological information about how the Jews of Jerusalem buried their dead in the time of Jesus. The Gospels also show familiarity with Jewish law, conveying Joseph's concern to bury Jesus before the Sabbath. They make it clear that Joseph was not trying to "honor" Jesus by burying him in a rock-cut tomb (a modern, anachronistic concept, since there was no shame associated with burial in trench graves, which was the accepted practice). Instead Joseph wanted to ensure that Jesus was buried in accordance with Jewish law."

Conclusion: Does Dr. Magness believe that the gospel accounts accurately reflect first century Jewish burial customs and laws? Answer: Yes. Does Dr. Magness tell us that she believes that the gospel claim that Jesus of Nazareth was buried in the rock tomb of Joseph of Arimathea is a historical or even probable historical fact? Answer: Absolutely not!

My purpose in using Dr. Magness quote was to demonstrate that MOST poor Jews in first century Palestine were buried in dirt trenches. That's it. Her quote in no way proves that JESUS was buried in a dirt trench. It only provides more evidence for my claim that the Empty Tomb Story MAY be a Markian embellishment as the probability that the Sanhedrin would allow the hated Galilean peasant to be buried in the middle of the tombs of Jerusalem's rich high society seems pretty improbable to me. Possible, of course. Probable? Not hardly

You have made a mountain out of a non-existent mole hill.

Good grief.

I'm done for today.

[Adrift]

Oh my lord you're terrible at this. I'd tell you not to quit your day job, but since you're terrible at that too, you might as well. One would think that you'd have learned by now after you got egg on your face for citing Magness in your The Empty Tomb is most likely not Historical thread. Magness doesn't have accept that the gospels are accurate in every detail in order to come to the conclusion that the general narrative is accurate in its depiction of the burial, which is precisely the only point that she needs to make. You goofed when you cited an expert against yourself, then hoped no one would notice when it was pointed out, and now you're feebly attempting to save face. You stink of desperation dude. I'm literally cringing over here for you. How can you keep coming back to this forum looking as ridiculous as you do and not even be reflective about it? Man. I suppose it takes a deep lack of a sense of shame to daily do the sort of things you do. We've seen a couple others about as sad as you, but you're definitely up there.

[Cow Poke]

I'm done for today.

I think you were done before you started, Gary.

[One Bad Pig]

I am still deeply gratified by your attention.

:)

For once, I believe you.