Conditional or Unconditional Election?

[Rushing Jaws]

Unconditional election, definitely

[phat8594]

". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.

'and belief of the truth'

God's elects through our belief (& sanctification of the Spirit)

[phat8594]

I to believe that God is the ultimate author of salvation, what is being discussed is the methods that God chose to effect salvation...

Based upon this conclusion, logic demands that we conclude salvation predicated upon/through faith; which by definition is conditional rather than unconditional... Still we can rightly conclude that God unconditionally chose faith. {Election}

Yes, that more or less seems to be what I am saying. God's choice of 'faith' is unconditional -- but faith is the 'condition' for us to be in Christ.



IOW, God doesn't unconditional choose who will have faith, but rather unconditionally (from His POV) those that have faith.

[dacristoy]

As an Open Theist (ovt), most probably would think that I would fall into the "conditional" category. But, that would not be correct. To be accurate, I would say I believe in Corporate Election. However, to the OP, I have come to believe that the scripture actually supports both. As an ovt, I believe God has a plan, and His plan will not be thwarted...to that end, He may elect some individuals that are (crucial/necessary/essential?) to that plan...many others that hear the Gospel and respond not because of unconditional election but because they choose God. He offers it to all and expects all to respond. see Acts 17:29-30, 1Tim. 2:4-5.

I believe in Corporate Election through faith...

[footwasher]

1 Peter 1
1To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

Chosen for a role, no mention of conditional or unconditional choosing

2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[b] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Fulfilment of the role through sanctification by the Spirit and believing the truth, the gospel that enables sharing in Christ's glory. Again, no mention of conditional or unconditional choosing

The election is God's. The condition for election is set by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The election is not merited. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.)

". . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:2.
". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.

[37818]

The election is God's. The condition for election is set by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit. The election is not merited. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.)

". . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . ." -- 1 Peter 1:2.
". . . God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.

[The Remonstrant]

I'm an Arminian. I'm right. The end.

[dacristoy]

First off, I should point out that the words 'unconditional election' are not found in the Bible.

That being said, from my studies of the scriptures I have seen an 'unconditional / conditional' form of election.

Unconditional from God's point of view (nothing conditioned God to offer salvation)

Conditional from mans point of view (man must be found in Christ, which occurs by faith)


I believe the Calvinist is right in trying to defend the idea that God is the ulimate author of salvation, and that salvation comes by His mercy and His choice. However, I believe they go to far in asserting that salvation is also unconditional to man (man has no real choice in the matter).

Personally I believe God chose to save all those who have faith (in Christ), and this (salvation) not of their own doing, but a free gift of God. IOW, faith doesn't earn anything, it is just the condition (of man) upon which God has set His sovereign choice.

I to believe that God is the ultimate author of salvation, what is being discussed is the methods that God chose to effect salvation...

Personally I believe God chose to save all those who have faith (in Christ),

Based upon this conclusion, logic demands that we conclude salvation predicated upon/through faith; which by definition is conditional rather than unconditional... Still we can rightly conclude that God unconditionally chose faith. {Election}

[Littlejoe]

As an Open Theist (ovt), most probably would think that I would fall into the "conditional" category. But, that would not be correct. To be accurate, I would say I believe in Corporate Election. However, to the OP, I have come to believe that the scripture actually supports both. As an ovt, I believe God has a plan, and His plan will not be thwarted...to that end, He may elect some individuals that are (crucial/necessary/essential?) to that plan...many others that hear the Gospel and respond not because of unconditional election but because they choose God. He offers it to all and expects all to respond. see Acts 17:29-30, 1Tim. 2:4-5.

[footwasher]

Ephesians 2 is not a treatise on how faith unto salvation is a gift from God, but how God has fulfilled His promise to bless ALL nations (corporate entities, Jew and Gentle) through his Seed.

Gifting to be the means by which the world is blessed, not based on , conditional to merit, but because it pleased Him, just as it pleased Him to choose Israel only in the Old Covenant:

Deuteronomy 7
7"The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,

[RBerman]

Of course, I'm believing its only a matter of time before you become a free will theist, RB.

I used to be one. If it is God's will for me to become one again, I will do so.

[phat8594]

On the previous incarnation of this board, Phat and I debated this topic at length. We came away with respect but not agreement.

Yes, I have a lot of respect for you RB.


Of course, I'm believing its only a matter of time before you become a free will theist, RB.

[phat8594]

Thanks for your response Mr. RBerman. Interested in how Phat would describe the concept of "unconditional election".

First off, I should point out that the words 'unconditional election' are not found in the Bible.

That being said, from my studies of the scriptures I have seen an 'unconditional / conditional' form of election.

Unconditional from God's point of view (nothing conditioned God to offer salvation)

Conditional from mans point of view (man must be found in Christ, which occurs by faith)


I believe the Calvinist is right in trying to defend the idea that God is the ulimate author of salvation, and that salvation comes by His mercy and His choice. However, I believe they go to far in asserting that salvation is also unconditional to man (man has no real choice in the matter).

Personally I believe God chose to save all those who have faith (in Christ), and this (salvation) not of their own doing, but a free gift of God. IOW, faith doesn't earn anything, it is just the condition (of man) upon which God has set His sovereign choice.

[dacristoy]

On the previous incarnation of this board, Phat and I debated this topic at length. We came away with respect but not agreement.

Thanks for your response Mr. RBerman. Interested in how Phat would describe the concept of "unconditional election".

[RBerman]

That be a big no no,,, God chose (Election) faith as the means of salvation predicated upon nothing save his own wishes and volition. He did not chose faith predicated upon what we would do... Difficult to wrap your mind around this precept as long as your mind is pre conditioned other wise...

Give it a fair shot, it is in the bible...

On the previous incarnation of this board, Phat and I debated this topic at length. We came away with respect but not agreement.