Celebrating Christmas

[Sparko]

When I was teaching on Paul's trip to Rome, when he passed the Island of Myra, I did a diversion. That's where Saint Nicholas lived. He was born into a wealthy family, and his parents died while he was a young adult. Adhering to Jesus's statement to the rich man to give what he had to the poor and follow Him, Nicholas gave his wealth to poor people. He later became a bishop and took part in the Council of Nicea where they had to deal with the Arian heresy in AD 325. He became so angry with Arius that he got up and punched him in the face. Can you imaging getting slugged in the face by Santa Claus? I guess getting coal in his stocking wasn't enough.

Obviously you don't know the German Santa. And Krampus.

[Cerebrum123]

Tree decorating and gift-giving and (I think) mistletoe come from the Roman Saturnalia festival, which also was celebrated for 7 days on December 25th.

From what I understand, no, no, and no. Tree decorating started very recently, and had nothing to do with paganism, gift giving is practically universal among religions[1], Saturnalia was on the 17th of December[2], and mistletoe doesn't appear to have a solid basis with Saturnalia. I know claims like these are made in a lot of popular works, but they don't go back very far. Here is a little bit from "Christmas is Pagan, And Other Myths" by James Patrick Holding.



You can buy the book here.

The book also mentions that there are other contradictory "origins" for mistletoe. Such as it having to do with death of Balder, and his mother's subsequent promise to kiss someone under it. There isn't really evidence for this one either from what I can tell.

Christmas trees seem to first show up in the 1,500's in Germany. No connection to Saturnalia. There are several origin stories, two appear to be legends, like Martin Luther, and the one with St. Boniface.

Your point about the conception/death of prophets is real, but I think it's accuracy can be refuted scripturally at least in this case.

While I personally don't believe they were right, I haven't seen any evidence that contradicts this belief. Without much more accurate records I don't see how we could know. Maybe you're aware of something I'm not?

1. Especially on significant occasions, so this one is a rather pointless objection.
2. Some sources show Saturnalia with 7 "inclusive" days, but others show it to be 5 or less. None of them make it to December 25th though.

[Rushing Jaws]

Many Christians believe that the only elements that should be included in the worship of God are the elements that are explicitly commanded by the Bible. According to the Bible, celebrating Christmas is not one of the elements included in the worship of God. Worshiping God should not include the celebration of Christmas. How would you respond to this?

I would ask them where in Scripture is there a Scriptural list of the names, extent and numbers of the books they rely on for this doctrine of theirs. I don't want their fallible, all-too-human, non-God-breathed, biased idea, their "tradition of men", by which they seek to bind burdens on others without lifting a finger to relieve them; I want the place in Holy Scripture that condemns as wrong the commemorating by Christians of the Nativity of Our Lord into the world He created. Their own position is unScriptural.

[Super Cow]

From what I understand, no, no, and no. Tree decorating started very recently, and had nothing to do with paganism, gift giving is practically universal among religions[1], Saturnalia was on the 17th of December[2], and mistletoe doesn't appear to have a solid basis with Saturnalia. I know claims like these are made in a lot of popular works, but they don't go back very far. Here is a little bit from "Christmas is Pagan, And Other Myths" by James Patrick Holding.



You can buy the book here.

The book also mentions that there are other contradictory "origins" for mistletoe. Such as it having to do with death of Balder, and his mother's subsequent promise to kiss someone under it. There isn't really evidence for this one either from what I can tell.

Christmas trees seem to first show up in the 1,500's in Germany. No connection to Saturnalia. There are several origin stories, two appear to be legends, like Martin Luther, and the one with St. Boniface.



While I personally don't believe they were right, I haven't seen any evidence that contradicts this belief. Without much more accurate records I don't see how we could know. Maybe you're aware of something I'm not?

1. Especially on significant occasions, so this one is a rather pointless objection.
2. Some sources show Saturnalia with 7 "inclusive" days, but others show it to be 5 or less. None of them make it to December 25th though.

I'm not an expert on Roman paganism (other than some mythology that borrows from Greek myths), so I'm not sure about the traditions of Saturnalia other than the dates. You are correct that Saturnalia was observed on December 17th, and this originated probably a couple of centuries before Christ's birth, but by the time Christianity was accepted in Rome, it had changed a little bit, lasting 7 days ending on December 25th.

Regardless of the origins of the date choice, it is unlikely Jesus was born on December 25th simply because weather conditions would not be conducive to the activities described in Luke chapter 2. If Rome wanted the most accurate census registration, they would not have picked a time when weather conditions were the worst for travel. Also the shepherds would have sheltered their flocks that time of year, not watching over them during the coldest and rainiest nights of the year. I have read books and web sites that speculate on the actual date being in springtime or early fall, but from what I could determine from their logic, that is mostly conjecture. At least from a weather standpoint; however, it makes more sense.

[Cerebrum123]

I'm not an expert on Roman paganism (other than some mythology that borrows from Greek myths), so I'm not sure about the traditions of Saturnalia other than the dates. You are correct that Saturnalia was observed on December 17th, and this originated probably a couple of centuries before Christ's birth, but by the time Christianity was accepted in Rome, it had changed a little bit, lasting 7 days ending on December 25th.

Got a source for that? From what I've seen it got shortened to three days, then brought back up to five days. None of it ended up being on December 25th.

Regardless of the origins of the date choice, it is unlikely Jesus was born on December 25th simply because weather conditions would not be conducive to the activities described in Luke chapter 2. If Rome wanted the most accurate census registration, they would not have picked a time when weather conditions were the worst for travel. Also the shepherds would have sheltered their flocks that time of year, not watching over them during the coldest and rainiest nights of the year. I have read books and web sites that speculate on the actual date being in springtime or early fall, but from what I could determine from their logic, that is mostly conjecture. At least from a weather standpoint; however, it makes more sense.

Source: Should Christians Celebrate Christmas

James Kelso, an archaeologist who spent a number of years living in Palestine and who has done extensive research there says this:

The best season for the shepherds of Bethlehem is the winter when heavy rains bring up a luscious crop of new grass. After the rains the once-barren, brown desert earth is suddenly a field of brilliant green. One year when excavating at New Testament Jericho, I lived in Jerusalem and drove through this area twice every day. At one single point along the road, I could see at times as many as five shepherds with their flocks on one hillside. One shepherd stayed with his flock at the same point for three weeks, so lush was the grass. But as soon as the rains stopped in the spring, the land quickly took on its normal desert look once again.

© Copyright Original Source

Source.

Sounds a lot nicer than what you describe. Heavy rain may make travel more difficult in some places, but in drier climates it could make things easier due to better access to water.

Either way, once the pagan associations are shown to be false, why does the date matter? How about we focus on the why of the celebration rather than the when?

[One Bad Pig]

I'm not an expert on Roman paganism (other than some mythology that borrows from Greek myths), so I'm not sure about the traditions of Saturnalia other than the dates. You are correct that Saturnalia was observed on December 17th, and this originated probably a couple of centuries before Christ's birth, but by the time Christianity was accepted in Rome, it had changed a little bit, lasting 7 days ending on December 25th.

I'm not sure you're reading what you respond to very closely; Cerebrum already deals with the 7 days hypothesis, and notes that it fails to reach December 25.

[Cerebrum123]

I'm not sure you're reading what you respond to very closely; Cerebrum already deals with the 7 days hypothesis, and notes that it fails to reach December 25.

At this point I'm thinking he's so dug into his position that not much will get through.

[NorrinRadd]

Thanks for the informative discussion and links, everyone. I am of the "There are no holy or unholy days" persuasion. I enjoy much about Christmas and the whole Holiday Season. (But less so now that I'm old and sluggish and unfavorably sensitive to dark and cold, and now that my parents have both passed and family gatherings are becoming more sparsely attended.) While I don't consider Christmas to be "holy," I appreciate the Bible themes it brings into more widespread daily consciousness, and I always enjoy seeing data useful for pushing back against infidels on the one hand and anti-Christmas legalists on the other.

[Jedidiah]

249 days until Christmas.

[Cow Poke]

249 days until Christmas.

You mean "A Savior is Born" Christmas?

[Jedidiah]

You mean "A Savior is Born" Christmas?

That is the only Christmas I celebrate, brother.

[One Bad Pig]

249 days until Christmas.

I'm somewhat surprised, considering the derivation of the term from the Catholic Mass, that it is still the usual term among Protestants.

[Cow Poke]

That is the only Christmas I celebrate, brother.

Why does this not surprise me at all?

[Jedidiah]

I'm somewhat surprised, considering the derivation of the term from the Catholic Mass, that it is still the usual term among Protestants.

Just as the so-called pagan trappings have nothing to do with a celebration of the birth of Christ, Catholic terminology has nothing to do with the celebration among protestants.

[Cow Poke]

Hey... [ looking around ] ....

Christmas is coming