Originally posted by mossrose
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Celebrating Christmas
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostI'm not asking for anything more than a reference for your claims. Nothing to get worked up over.
Oh, and really? Attempted well poisoning already?
I find the quote repeated in a lot of places, and none of them give reliable sources so far except for the on concerning Tertullian. Tertullian's argument is rather bad actually. Apparently, in his mind, if you decorate an entrance, you are therefore worshiping the "god/demon of entrances".
His argument backfires too, because God ordered the Israelites to make decorations for the Tabernacle at various places. If each has a demon associated with it, then God Himself ordered the Israelites to "worship" said demons with the "tokens" associated with each.
Go to Chapter 15 of On Idolatry to see his thoughts about decorations. It just really doesn't make any sense.
All of the sites that pop up use the argument that Jeremiah spoke against decorating trees.
I mean, seriously? The verse they use is clearly about idols being worshiped, not ordinary decorations.
I highly recommend Christmas is Pagan and Other Myths.
The series isn't finished yet, but the video form starts here. It's a parody of "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas". The book is much more in depth though, so is better for checking things out. The two videos so far give a decent overview though.
Well, since that history doesn't seem to be what you think it is, I see no reason to object to a Christmas tree.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostOur "modern" Christmas tree has often been attributed to Martin Luther. It is said he was out walking one night and saw the stars shining through the branches of an evergreen, and brought one home and loaded it up with candles.
Not so much pagan as "Ooh! Pretty!"The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by GoBahnsen View PostWelcome back to Tweb GB. Where can always get your debate head slammed into a wall. Gosh my flesh misses this place. Lol. Have a nice day brother. I think you make some good points. Keep up the hard work.
Your reference to homosexuals in the pulpit does come off as a way to poison the well regarding those who don't accept the claim that Christmas has many elements borrowed from pagan religions.
I've seen the argument made that Christmas has many pagan elements many times, what I haven't seen are good reasons to believe said arguments. I was hoping that you had something more to interact with than verses from Jeremiah, or certain similarities with pagan religions that are something more than superficial.
BTW, you didn't make the argument using Jeremiah, so the isn't aimed at you.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd don't forget the Old Testament verses that forbid you from chopping down a tree and bringing it in your house and decorating it!
Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostAll of the sites that pop up use the argument that Jeremiah spoke against decorating trees.
(for the record, I was being facetious, because, indeed, I have heard of people who actually advocate that position!)The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostThere was no intention to "slam" you into a wall. Just trying to show that the sources for your quote aren't exactly very well argued, nor that trustworthy.
Your reference to homosexuals in the pulpit does come off as a way to poison the well regarding those who don't accept the claim that Christmas has many elements borrowed from pagan religions.
I've seen the argument made that Christmas has many pagan elements many times, what I haven't seen are good reasons to believe said arguments. I was hoping that you had something more to interact with than verses from Jeremiah, or certain similarities with pagan religions that are something more than superficial.
BTW, you didn't make the argument using Jeremiah, so the isn't aimed at you.
I put some hard work in. I'm not that smart, so it was hard to try to keep up with the more intelligent people in here. And a lot of times I just did not keep up.
I sure got "into the flesh" at times. Something about someone making you look like a fool without them appearing to give a rip about your feelings....well, it can draw you into a fleshly state of mind. Doesn't have to, but it happens.
And seldom do you ever get the pleasure of seeing someone actually change their position based on something you pointed out to them. It's mostly defensive posturing in here, unless things have changed. Have a good one.
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Originally posted by GoBahnsen View PostFor however I long I hang around here this time, I don't plan to do much debating. I really enjoyed my first go around back in the day when this place was popping like popcorn.
I put some hard work in. I'm not that smart, so it was hard to try to keep up with the more intelligent people in here. And a lot of times I just did not keep up.
I sure got "into the flesh" at times. Something about someone making you look like a fool without them appearing to give a rip about your feelings....well, it can draw you into a fleshly state of mind. Doesn't have to, but it happens.
And seldom do you ever get the pleasure of seeing someone actually change their position based on something you pointed out to them. It's mostly defensive posturing in here, unless things have changed. Have a good one.
I'm not trying to start a fight btw. I'm mostly interested in seeing why so many people see Christmas as pagan. For most I've met, it's either due to misinformation, misunderstanding, or rarely even "willful blindness". I was wanting to see if you fit into any of those molds. I can tell you this, I certainly don't expect the latter. I can only remember one instance of it, and he was willfully blind on just about everything.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostI knew that, and I actually remember when Mickiel brought out that argument.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I once saw someone state that since wedding rings have pagan origins, he wouldn't wear one (though he'd been married for a long time). I thought that was strange. Maybe the rings do have a pagan origin--though I don't remember any of what he said about that--but most people, especially Christians, certainly don't wear their wedding rings with pagan intent now. I would think this could be similar with Christmas trees, though I don't know anything about their origin either.
They're both pretty much just a cultural tradition. I don't see the harm in either.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostI understand that, I don't do much debating myself. I tend to stick around the less serious areas. Certain people are more trouble dealing with than it's worth.
I know what that's like, although some people can make themselves appear a lot smarter than they are.
None of us are perfect. A lot of people don't care as much because they don't see you like they do if they were in person. Others just use the anonymity of the internet to be bullies.
I know I've changed my mind here, and I'm pretty sure others have too. You might not see it, but it probably happens more than you think. You too btw.
I'm not trying to start a fight btw. I'm mostly interested in seeing why so many people see Christmas as pagan. For most I've met, it's either due to misinformation, misunderstanding, or rarely even "willful blindness". I was wanting to see if you fit into any of those molds. I can tell you this, I certainly don't expect the latter. I can only remember one instance of it, and he was willfully blind on just about everything.
It does seem suspect that we are celebrating Christ's birth at a time of year when he most likely was not born in. Like requiring the subjects of Rome to travel to their own cities to file for taxes in the dead of Winter. So when I see people put out signs that Jesus is the "reason for the season"....I'm like...I don't think so. He is the reason for every season for that matter.
Christmas here in America seems to be more about family, gift giving, parties, and a bunch of fantasy stuff. Why try to shoe-horn Christ's birth in there? As if He needs or wants a birthday celebration. But if it draws one closer to Christ by celebrating His birth on December 25th, far be it from me to begrudge them that much.
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Originally posted by GoBahnsen View PostOk. Yeah, well sorry to disappoint, but my position is merely based on things I have picked up along the way and then simply "bought in" because it sounded legit. So, maybe I am the victim of bad info.
It does seem suspect that we are celebrating Christ's birth at a time of year when he most likely was not born in. Like requiring the subjects of Rome to travel to their own cities to file for taxes in the dead of Winter. So when I see people put out signs that Jesus is the "reason for the season"....I'm like...I don't think so. He is the reason for every season for that matter.
Christmas here in America seems to be more about family, gift giving, parties, and a bunch of fantasy stuff. Why try to shoe-horn Christ's birth in there? As if He needs or wants a birthday celebration. But if it draws one closer to Christ by celebrating His birth on December 25th, far be it from me to begrudge them that much.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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