Celebrating Christmas

[Cerebrum123]

The Early Church by Henry Chadwick p.126-7
"Clement of Alexander (c. A.D. 200) speaks of Christ driving his chariot across the sky like the Sun-god. A tomb mosaic recently found at Rome, probably made in the fourth century, depicts Christ as the Sun-god mounting the heavens with his chariot. Tertullian says that many pagans imagined the Christians worshipped the sun because the met on Sundays and prayed towards the East. Moreover, early in the fourth century there begins in the West (where first and by whom is not known) the celebration of 25th December, the birthday of the Sun-god at the winter solstice, as the date the nativity of Christ. How easy it was for Christianity and solar religion to become entangled at the popular level is strikingly illustrated by the mid-fifth century sermon of Pope Leo the Great, rebuking his over-cautious flock for paying reverence to the Sun on the steps of St Peter's before turning their back on it to worship inside the westward-facing basilica."


BU

Yeah, not a very good case made there. Chariots, as well as imagery associated with the sun are often used in the Bible. In Revelation Jesus is described as follows.

Revelation 1:14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

In Psalms God is said to use clouds as chariots, and to use light as a garment.

Psalm 104:2-4New International Version (NIV)
2 The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment;
he stretches out the heavens like a tent
3 and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters.
He makes the clouds his chariot
and rides on the wings of the wind.
4 He makes winds his messengers,[a]
flames of fire his servants.

Which "sun god" was supposedly born on December 25th? This guy doesn't give any references, or if he does in the work you haven't given them to us.

If our record of Hippolytus is correct, then December 25th was already in use by Christians before Sol Invictus. Saturnalia wasn't celebrated on December 25th at all. If there is any borrowing, it is in the opposite direction.

Source: Christmas is Pagan and Other Myths

So, how about December 25th? We may have the earliest reference to December 25th in the work of an author named Hippolytus, who lived from around 170 to 236 AD. He wrote a commentary on the book of Daniel wherein he says:

For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, eight days before the calends of January, the 4th day of the week Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam five thousand and five hundred years.

© Copyright Original Source

You might check this book out, it has a lot of interesting information. You should also read the whole thread here, as it has a lot of information, and I'd rather not have to retype a lot of the information.

[Bibleuser]

So you are saying that Charles Russel and the people who started and ran the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower were wrong?

What makes you think they are not wrong now?

They even used to use CROSSES!!!

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and notice the pagan Pyramid! Charles Russel, The founder of your religion was very pagan. as were all of the other early members of the Watchtower Society.

And they were wrong every time they predicted Armageddon and the End of Days, which was many times.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]25576[/ATTACH]

So you think you can trust a group that is so consistently wrong about it's own doctrines and prophesies in the past? They have a horrible record. False prophets are not to be followed but to be put to death.

All now junked as you full well know.
You seem to be going prehistoric!
BU

[Bibleuser]

Chadwick appears to have been underinformed, because there is evidence that Christmas was celebrated before the fourth century in the West (if you'd bothered reading the thread, you'd know that). Given your blunder at the beginning of the quote ("Clement of Alexander"), it is obvious that you're uncritically copying it from somewhere else.

Just one of many ideas but have a common thred, it pagan in origin:-

Baker's Dictionary of Theology p.117
"Christmas. The EARLY Christians DID NOT OBSERVE THE FESTIVAL OF Christ's BIRTH, TO WHICH THEY DID NOT ATTACH THE IMPORTANCE ASCRIBED TO HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION . in THE East , AND LATER west , Christ's BIRTHDAY was observed on January 6th in connection was with his baptism, a day on which the pagan world celebrated the feast of Dionysus, associated with the lengthening of days. The night of January 5th-6th was devoted to the feast of Christ's birth and the day of January 6th to his baptism. A fourth century papyrus contains the oldest Christmas liturgy in existence. The nativity festival was separated from the early Christian Epiphany feast and given its own day, December 25th, between the years 325 and 354. In Rome, December 25th is attested as a day of Christ's birth in 366. It was introduced perhaps by Constantine the Great who evidently chose the day because of the popular pagan feast of the sun. Gregory Nazianzen and Chrysostom popularised the new festival in Constantinpole. But opposition to the new feast was stubborn throughout the East, especially in Syria (Antioch). Egypt did not receive it till 431, Armenia never."

Lots along this line.
BU

[Cow Poke]

Just one of many ideas but have a common thred, it pagan in origin:-

Baker's Dictionary of Theology p.117
"Christmas. The EARLY Christians DID NOT OBSERVE THE FESTIVAL OF Christ's BIRTH, TO WHICH THEY DID NOT ATTACH THE IMPORTANCE ASCRIBED TO HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION . in THE East , AND LATER west , Christ's BIRTHDAY was observed on January 6th in connection was with his baptism, a day on which the pagan world celebrated the feast of Dionysus, associated with the lengthening of days. The night of January 5th-6th was devoted to the feast of Christ's birth and the day of January 6th to his baptism. A fourth century papyrus contains the oldest Christmas liturgy in existence. The nativity festival was separated from the early Christian Epiphany feast and given its own day, December 25th, between the years 325 and 354. In Rome, December 25th is attested as a day of Christ's birth in 366. It was introduced perhaps by Constantine the Great who evidently chose the day because of the popular pagan feast of the sun. Gregory Nazianzen and Chrysostom popularised the new festival in Constantinpole. But opposition to the new feast was stubborn throughout the East, especially in Syria (Antioch). Egypt did not receive it till 431, Armenia never."

Lots along this line.
BU

Merry Christmas

[One Bad Pig]

Oh, look, another quote uncritically copied from elsewhere, horrible formatting and all.

Just one of many ideas but have a common thred, it pagan in origin:-

Baker's Dictionary of Theology p.117
"Christmas. The EARLY Christians DID NOT OBSERVE THE FESTIVAL OF Christ's BIRTH, TO WHICH THEY DID NOT ATTACH THE IMPORTANCE ASCRIBED TO HIS DEATH AND RESURRECTION . in THE East , AND LATER west , Christ's BIRTHDAY was observed on January 6th in connection was with his baptism, a day on which the pagan world celebrated the feast of Dionysus, associated with the lengthening of days. The night of January 5th-6th was devoted to the feast of Christ's birth and the day of January 6th to his baptism. A fourth century papyrus contains the oldest Christmas liturgy in existence. The nativity festival was separated from the early Christian Epiphany feast and given its own day, December 25th, between the years 325 and 354. In Rome, December 25th is attested as a day of Christ's birth in 366. It was introduced perhaps by Constantine the Great who evidently chose the day because of the popular pagan feast of the sun. Gregory Nazianzen and Chrysostom popularised the new festival in Constantinpole. But opposition to the new feast was stubborn throughout the East, especially in Syria (Antioch). Egypt did not receive it till 431, Armenia never."

Lots along this line.
BU

I see you still haven't bothered reading this thread, which well attests to evidence which invalidates the Western starting points ascribed here. Which edition of Baker's Dictionary of Theology is this? When was it published? Have you checked to see if your source correctly transcribed the entry? Have you checked to see if more recent editions have an updated entry? Of course not - you just saw something that supported your viewpoint and hoped it wouldn't be challenged.

[One Bad Pig]

All now junked as you full well know.
You seem to be going prehistoric!
BU

"Yeah, we were wrong before, but we're better now. Please ignore all the stuff we used to say."

What a resounding vote of confidence!

[Cow Poke]

"Yeah, we were wrong before, but we're better now. Please ignore all the stuff we used to say."

What a resounding vote of confidence!

Kinda like Joseph Smith! "Hey, you guys got religion all wrong, God revealed it's THIS way... um.. well, hold that thought....."

[Sparko]

All now junked as you full well know.
You seem to be going prehistoric!
BU

Junked?

Your entire religion is based on this junk. A house built on sand. The founders and basic principals and doctrines that formed the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses are all wrong and "junked" now. So why do you think what you believe is correct? Even your bible translation, the NWT was written by Russell who knew absolutely nothing about Greek or Hebrew. It is the worst translation ever made! And you still use it!

Your argument so far is that we should not celebrate Christmas because it is based on pagan beliefs. Yet as I showed you, your ENTIRE religion and organization is based on pagan beliefs. If Charles Russell and the Watchtower were pagans then what does that make YOU?

[Cow Poke]

Junked?

Your entire religion is based on this junk. A house built on sand. The founders and basic principals and doctrines that formed the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses are all wrong and "junked" now. So why do you think what you believe is correct? Even your bible translation, the NWT was written by Russell who knew absolutely nothing about Greek or Hebrew. It is the worst translation ever made! And you still use it!

Of the seven "translators" - all members of the same cult - who worked on "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures", only Frederick Franz appears to have had any actual schooling in the original languages - 2 hours of Bible Greek and 21 hours of Classical Greek. He was the resident subject matter expert.

Franz claimed to have studied under Professor Arthur Kensella, who, lacking a PhD, was an "instructor", not a professor, at the University of Cincinnati.

I don't think there's any evidence, though, that he was working from gold plates.

[tabibito]

Yeah, not a very good case made there. Chariots, as well as imagery associated with the sun are often used in the Bible. In Revelation Jesus is described as follows.

Revelation 1:14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

In Psalms God is said to use clouds as chariots, and to use light as a garment.

Psalm 104:2-4New International Version (NIV)
2 The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment;
he stretches out the heavens like a tent
3 and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters.
He makes the clouds his chariot
and rides on the wings of the wind.
4 He makes winds his messengers,[a]
flames of fire his servants.

Which "sun god" was supposedly born on December 25th? This guy doesn't give any references, or if he does in the work you haven't given them to us.

If our record of Hippolytus is correct, then December 25th was already in use by Christians before Sol Invictus. Saturnalia wasn't celebrated on December 25th at all. If there is any borrowing, it is in the opposite direction.

Source: Christmas is Pagan and Other Myths

So, how about December 25th? We may have the earliest reference to December 25th in the work of an author named Hippolytus, who lived from around 170 to 236 AD. He wrote a commentary on the book of Daniel wherein he says:

For the first advent of our Lord in the flesh, when he was born in Bethlehem, eight days before the calends of January, the 4th day of the week Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, but from Adam five thousand and five hundred years.

© Copyright Original Source

You might check this book out, it has a lot of interesting information. You should also read the whole thread here, as it has a lot of information, and I'd rather not have to retype a lot of the information.

Yup:
In AD 219, not long after Elagabalus arrived from Syria, where he had been the hereditary priest of the sun god Elagabal in Emesa, Sol Invictus (the Invincible or Unconquerable Sun) was introduced to Rome as its principal deity. Elagabalus enlarged the Temple of Jupiter Victor on the Palatine and rededicated it in AD 221 as the Elagabalium (Herodian, Roman History, V.5.8), where the rites of Jews and Christians were to be transferred "in order that the priesthood of Elagabalus might include the mysteries of every form of worship" (Historia Augusta, III.4). http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/.../invictus.html

As for Saturnalia: the date was Dec 17 until Julius Caesar adjusted the calendar, adding two days to December. The date of Saturnalia was then either on the 17th (calculating from the beginning of December) or the 19th (preserving the number of days to the end of December.) The confusion resulted in a three day festival, which soon extended to a full week, finishing on the 23rd December.

As for the estimations of Jesus birthday being December 25th (a later Western change to the original (Eastern) date of January 6) - one factor (of a number) in that calculation was the estimated date of the crucifixion - that estimate being March 25th. It was believed that a holy man of God would live an exact number of years. The calculation then set the day of birth as 3 months earlier than the date of death. Conceived March 25, Born Dec 25, Died March 25. (a point to remember when someone claims that early Christians did not count human life to begin with conception.)


The early celebrations of Christmas reflected Jewish practices of Hanukkah, which is celebrated around the same general time frame - and is a movable feast against the solar calendar.

[Sparko]

[Jedidiah]

Junked?

Your entire religion is based on this junk. A house built on sand. The founders and basic principals and doctrines that formed the Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses are all wrong and "junked" now. So why do you think what you believe is correct? Even your bible translation, the NWT was written by Russell who knew absolutely nothing about Greek or Hebrew. It is the worst translation ever made! And you still use it!

Your argument so far is that we should not celebrate Christmas because it is based on pagan beliefs. Yet as I showed you, your ENTIRE religion and organization is based on pagan beliefs. If Charles Russell and the Watchtower were pagans then what does that make YOU?

They have a new updated translation now. It is still a poor one.

[Cow Poke]

They have a new updated translation now. It is still a poor one.

Same with the Mormons. They had to get rid of "White and Delightsome".

[Rushing Jaws]

I hear ya. What the heck....Jeremiah was before Christ was born anyway. We are talking about Christmas.

According to A. A. Hoekema, the JWs take Jer. 10.2-5 as denouncing Christmas trees. Taken with verses 1 and 2, those 5 verses make much better sense as a denunciation of two aspects of Babylonian religion.

[tabibito]

According to A. A. Hoekema, the JWs take Jer. 10.2-5 as denouncing Christmas trees. Taken with verses 1 and 2, those 5 verses make much better sense as a denunciation of two aspects of Babylonian religion.

That's about idols made of wood.

Since when did Christians worship Christmas Trees?