Celebrating Christmas

[rogue06]

I've actually seen a good argument for a December 25th / January 8th date that comes from a Jewish belief that a prophet departs this world on the same day of the year that he was conceived. When Jesus crucified? Passover. Which is on overage (depending on the lunar cycles) 9 months before Christmas.

It was in an old Parchment and Pen blog can't find it now, but here is another one that argues for the date for other reasons:
http://credohouse.org/blog/on-what-date-was-christ-born

This old Biblical Archaeology Review article delves into it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20091214.../christmas.asp

Or from a few hours ago...

To elaborate, from something I wrote in response to some Jesus Mythers on another website a few years ago (and I might have posted here later):

A festival for Sol Invictus on Dec. 25 was only established c. 274 or 275 AD by an emperor who was not very friendly toward Christianity. Prior to that the traditional festival days varied throughout the Roman Empire and included August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th.

OTOH, Christians had been marking the birth of Christ as taking place on December 25th since at least 204 AD, as the Commentary on the prophet Daniel^[1]), since at least 200 AD, was March 25th^[2]. Back then it was assumed that truly righteous men lived a whole number of years, without fractions meaning that they died on the same day they were conceived on (see the Talmud for examples). In short, if He died on March 25th He was must have also been conceived on March 25th. Add 9 months to the date of conception and you arrive at December 25th as the date of birth.

The confusion arises over the fact that the earliest Christians weren't really into celebrating the birth of Christ (they were far more interested in His death)^[3]1. In some parts of the East, especially in Asia Minor and in Egypt, they concluded that it was April 6th with the discrepancy being largely due to the difficulties of trying to translate an unfamiliar lunar calendar into a solar calendar.

2.3.

[Cow Poke]

I've actually seen a good argument for a December 25th / January 8th date that comes from a Jewish belief that a prophet departs this world on the same day of the year that he was conceived. When Jesus crucified? Passover. Which is on overage (depending on the lunar cycles) 9 months before Christmas.

It was in an old Parchment and Pen blog can't find it now, but here is another one that argues for the date for other reasons:
http://credohouse.org/blog/on-what-date-was-christ-born

This old Biblical Archaeology Review article delves into it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20091214.../christmas.asp

It seems to me I remember Rogue going on about something like that.

[Raphael]

Or from a few hours ago...

But I hadn't had my morning coffee yet when you post it, so it is irrelevant

[The Remonstrant]

Many Christians believe that the only elements that should be included in the worship of God are the elements that are explicitly commanded by the Bible. According to the Bible, celebrating Christmas is not one of the elements included in the worship of God. Worshiping God should not include the celebration of Christmas. How would you respond to this?

The celebration of Christmas is a matter of liberty for believers. I do not believe that Christians are required to celebrate or observe any specific holy days in the era of the New Covenant. You may celebrate or refrain. (In any case, worship of God is never to be confined to a specific day or season.)

[Bibleuser]

Many Christians believe that the only elements that should be included in the worship of God are the elements that are explicitly commanded by the Bible. According to the Bible, celebrating Christmas is not one of the elements included in the worship of God. Worshiping God should not include the celebration of Christmas. How would you respond to this?

It depends which God a person worships.

As it is not of The Bible and has been grafted of from pagan Sun worship via the Solstice and Saturnalia etc., and one claims to be Christian then no.

If one worships nature or the Sun god Sol, or old father time Saturn then yes in one wants to.
BU

[Sparko]

Since you are a Jehovah's Witness Bibleuser, it may interest you to know that Russell and the other Jehovah's Witnesses used to celebrate Christmas.

[Cerebrum123]

It depends which God a person worships.

As it is not of The Bible and has been grafted of from pagan Sun worship via the Solstice and Saturnalia etc., and one claims to be Christian then no.

If one worships nature or the Sun god Sol, or old father time Saturn then yes in one wants to.
BU

Good thing Christmas has nothing to do with either Saturnalia, or Sol Invictus then.

[Bibleuser]

Since you are a Jehovah's Witness Bibleuser, it may interest you to know that Russell and the other Jehovah's Witnesses used to celebrate Christmas.





http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=500689

]

You are so behind the times!!!

That stopped many years ago when it was shown to be pagan.

Please get up to-date.

You know better than that.

We change when things are not in harmony with scripture as you have just proved.
BU

[Cow Poke]

]

You are so behind the times!!!

That stopped many years ago when it was shown to be pagan.

Please get up to-date.

You know better than that.

We change when things are not in harmony with scripture as you have just proved.
BU

So, like the Mormons, your guy got a lot of stuff wrong right off the bat?

[Bibleuser]

Good thing Christmas has nothing to do with either Saturnalia, or Sol Invictus then.

The Early Church by Henry Chadwick p.126-7
"Clement of Alexander (c. A.D. 200) speaks of Christ driving his chariot across the sky like the Sun-god. A tomb mosaic recently found at Rome, probably made in the fourth century, depicts Christ as the Sun-god mounting the heavens with his chariot. Tertullian says that many pagans imagined the Christians worshipped the sun because the met on Sundays and prayed towards the East. Moreover, early in the fourth century there begins in the West (where first and by whom is not known) the celebration of 25th December, the birthday of the Sun-god at the winter solstice, as the date the nativity of Christ. How easy it was for Christianity and solar religion to become entangled at the popular level is strikingly illustrated by the mid-fifth century sermon of Pope Leo the Great, rebuking his over-cautious flock for paying reverence to the Sun on the steps of St Peter's before turning their back on it to worship inside the westward-facing basilica."


BU

[Faber]

I do not know any Christian who believes that December 25th is the actual date of Jesus birth. What is celebrated is the fact of His coming.

Getting him confused with Humphrey Bogart.

[Sparko]

]

You are so behind the times!!!

That stopped many years ago when it was shown to be pagan.

Please get up to-date.

You know better than that.

We change when things are not in harmony with scripture as you have just proved.
BU

So you are saying that Charles Russel and the people who started and ran the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower were wrong?

What makes you think they are not wrong now?

They even used to use CROSSES!!!

pyramid4.jpg

and notice the pagan Pyramid! Charles Russel, The founder of your religion was very pagan. as were all of the other early members of the Watchtower Society.

And they were wrong every time they predicted Armageddon and the End of Days, which was many times.

end-of-world-300x233.jpg

w68_1975.JPG

So you think you can trust a group that is so consistently wrong about it's own doctrines and prophesies in the past? They have a horrible record. False prophets are not to be followed but to be put to death.

[Cow Poke]

So you think you can trust a group that is so consistently wrong about it's own doctrines and prophesies in the past? They have a horrible record. False prophets are not to be followed but to be put to death.

I've never really thought about it before, but I wonder if Russell was influenced at all by Joseph Smith, and decided to start his own little pack.

According to Wiki:
Jehovah's Witnesses had its origins in the Bible Student movement, which developed in the United States in the 1870s among followers of Christian Restorationist minister Charles Taze Russell.

That "Christian Restorationist" would define who Joseph Smith thought he was.

(Interestingly enough, I found a site pretty quickly that attempts to establish a close relation between Smith and Russell - but it seems to be one of those illuminati conspiracy sites, so I'll keep looking)

[One Bad Pig]

The Early Church by Henry Chadwick p.126-7
"Clement of Alexander (c. A.D. 200) speaks of Christ driving his chariot across the sky like the Sun-god. A tomb mosaic recently found at Rome, probably made in the fourth century, depicts Christ as the Sun-god mounting the heavens with his chariot. Tertullian says that many pagans imagined the Christians worshipped the sun because the met on Sundays and prayed towards the East. Moreover, early in the fourth century there begins in the West (where first and by whom is not known) the celebration of 25th December, the birthday of the Sun-god at the winter solstice, as the date the nativity of Christ. How easy it was for Christianity and solar religion to become entangled at the popular level is strikingly illustrated by the mid-fifth century sermon of Pope Leo the Great, rebuking his over-cautious flock for paying reverence to the Sun on the steps of St Peter's before turning their back on it to worship inside the westward-facing basilica."

BU

Chadwick appears to have been underinformed, because there is evidence that Christmas was celebrated before the fourth century in the West (if you'd bothered reading the thread, you'd know that). Given your blunder at the beginning of the quote ("Clement of Alexander"), it is obvious that you're uncritically copying it from somewhere else.

[One Bad Pig]

I've never really thought about it before, but I wonder if Russell was influenced at all by Joseph Smith, and decided to start his own little pack.

According to Wiki:
Jehovah's Witnesses had its origins in the Bible Student movement, which developed in the United States in the 1870s among followers of Christian Restorationist minister Charles Taze Russell.

That "Christian Restorationist" would define who Joseph Smith thought he was.

(Interestingly enough, I found a site pretty quickly that attempts to establish a close relation between Smith and Russell - but it seems to be one of those illuminati conspiracy sites, so I'll keep looking)

IIRC the Campbellites were, like Smith, a product of the "Second Great Awakening".