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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
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Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
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Originally posted by Bibleuser View PostSo if it not in scripture why do it as its not supported by The Bible?
Its a Man made tradition not God made, so to speak.
BU
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostThat part isn't true. The ancients believed that, at least for significant persons, the date and month of conception and the date and month of death were the same. So they calculated that if Jesus died in Spring, He must have been conceived in Spring, and born nine months later. The *exact* dates calculated varied by a couple of weeks or so, but Dec. 25 was the most common.Last edited by Faber; 12-12-2017, 12:29 PM.When I Survey....
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd IIRC that is a result of switching from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian one.
And the selecting of December 25th has nothing to do with co-opting a pagan holiday
It seems more likely that the dating was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians at least since the second century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25 (see Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses for instance) and hence born on December 25 based upon his having died on March 25 -- which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.
This also demonstrates that Christians were celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25 before the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) on Dec. 25 was only established c. 245 AD meaning that contrary to popular belief it appears that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around.
A festival for Sol Invictus on Dec. 25 was only established c. 274 or 275 AD by an emperor who was not very friendly toward Christianity. Prior to that the traditional festival days varied throughout the Roman Empire and included August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th.
OTOH, Christians had been marking the birth of Christ as taking place on December 25th since at least 204 AD, as the Commentary on the prophet Daniel[1]), since at least 200 AD, was March 25th[2]. Back then it was assumed that truly righteous men lived a whole number of years, without fractions meaning that they died on the same day they were conceived on (see the Talmud for examples). In short, if He died on March 25th He was must have also been conceived on March 25th. Add 9 months to the date of conception and you arrive at December 25th as the date of birth.
The confusion arises over the fact that the earliest Christians weren't really into celebrating the birth of Christ (they were far more interested in His death)[3]1. In some parts of the East, especially in Asia Minor and in Egypt, they concluded that it was April 6th with the discrepancy being largely due to the difficulties of trying to translate an unfamiliar lunar calendar into a solar calendar.
2.3.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Bibleuser View PostSo if it not in scripture why do it as its not supported by The Bible?
Its a Man made tradition not God made, so to speak.
BU
We celebrate Christmas to remember Christ coming into the world to save us. We celebrate Easter to celebrate his resurrection. I think any day we celebrate Christ is a good day.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
I think any day we celebrate Christ is a good day.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostTo elaborate, from something I wrote in response to some Jesus Mythers on another website a few years ago (and I might have posted here later):
A festival for Sol Invictus on Dec. 25 was only established c. 274 or 275 AD by an emperor who was not very friendly toward Christianity. Prior to that the traditional festival days varied throughout the Roman Empire and included August 8th and/or the 9th, possibly August 28th, and December 11th -- but never December 25th.
OTOH, Christians had been marking the birth of Christ as taking place on December 25th since at least 204 AD, as the Commentary on the prophet Daniel[1]), since at least 200 AD, was March 25th[2]. Back then it was assumed that truly righteous men lived a whole number of years, without fractions meaning that they died on the same day they were conceived on (see the Talmud for examples). In short, if He died on March 25th He was must have also been conceived on March 25th. Add 9 months to the date of conception and you arrive at December 25th as the date of birth.
The confusion arises over the fact that the earliest Christians weren't really into celebrating the birth of Christ (they were far more interested in His death)[3]1. In some parts of the East, especially in Asia Minor and in Egypt, they concluded that it was April 6th with the discrepancy being largely due to the difficulties of trying to translate an unfamiliar lunar calendar into a solar calendar.
2.3.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Bibleuser View PostWhere in the Bible does it tell us on what day Jesus was born?
BUMicah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Bibleuser View PostThus not in the Text of Scripture?!
BU
What's next? No pianos, cause they weren't mentioned in the Bible?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI don't know of anybody who claims Jesus was born on December 25. Sounds like you're going to be an "arguing from silence" advocate.
What's next? No pianos, cause they weren't mentioned in the Bible?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI don't know of anybody who claims Jesus was born on December 25. Sounds like you're going to be an "arguing from silence" advocate.
What's next? No pianos, cause they weren't mentioned in the Bible?
It was in an old Parchment and Pen blog can't find it now, but here is another one that argues for the date for other reasons:
http://credohouse.org/blog/on-what-date-was-christ-born
This old Biblical Archaeology Review article delves into it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20091214.../christmas.aspBe watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
1 Corinthians 16:13
"...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
-Ben Witherington III
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Originally posted by Raphael View PostI've actually seen a good argument for a December 25th / January 8th date that comes from a Jewish belief that a prophet departs this world on the same day of the year that he was conceived. When Jesus crucified? Passover. Which is on overage (depending on the lunar cycles) 9 months before Christmas.
It was in an old Parchment and Pen blog can't find it now, but here is another one that argues for the date for other reasons:
http://credohouse.org/blog/on-what-date-was-christ-born
This old Biblical Archaeology Review article delves into it.
https://web.archive.org/web/20091214.../christmas.aspThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd IIRC that is a result of switching from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian one.
And the selecting of December 25th has nothing to do with co-opting a pagan holiday
It seems more likely that the dating was influenced by the Jewish concept that great figures lived an exact number of years (dying on the day that they were conceived). Christians at least since the second century held that Jesus was conceived on March 25 (see Irenaeus' Adversus Haereses for instance) and hence born on December 25 based upon his having died on March 25 -- which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.
This also demonstrates that Christians were celebrating Christ's birthday on December 25 before the festival for Sol Invictus (Dies Natalis Solis Invicti) on Dec. 25 was only established c. 245 AD meaning that contrary to popular belief it appears that festival was actually later syncretized with Christmas rather than the other way around.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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