Questions for Arminianism.

[Bill the Cat]

can it be said the the former type became apostates? How can they fall away from where they never really were in the first place?

exactly!

[37818]

Can it be said the the former type became apostates?

Not in the teaching that they would.

How can they fall away from where they never really were in the first place?

Then there are really no apostates. Only the lost who heard and failed to know the truth was truth.

1 Peter 2:9-22,

. . . and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: . . . These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. . . . For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4,
. . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . . of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The stony ground.

[Faber]

Then there are really no apostates. Only the lost who heard and failed to know the truth was truth.

Precisely! Not in the context of true born-again believers. The Greek word ἀποστασία is used twice in the NT. In Acts 21:21 James is cautioning Paul about accusations that Paul is advising Jews to forsake (apostasian) Moses. The other passage is 2 Thessalonians 2:3, "...except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..." It has been my contention that this passage is talking about the falling away of the Jewish nation after rejecting Jesus as the promised Messiah.

[Bill the Cat]

Then there are really no apostates. .

That is 100% contrary to scripture and church history.

[tabibito]

And the seed that fell among the thorns ... That ground is the apostate in prospect.

Can a name be blotted out of the book of life? At least one cause is stipulated:

Revelation 22:19

and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Can a person be lost? It takes some wresting to negate the plain statement of Christ - "Of all whom you gave me, none has been lost save the son of perdition." Judas had been given to Christ, and he had been lost.

But is entry into life granted to all comers, or only to those who have clothed themselves appropriately for partaking in the wedding feast? Does everyone who names Christ as his Lord receive life, or only those who heed his commands? Does a person who leaves the path laid out by Christ, to engage in idolatry, retain salvation? How often is it stated in Revelation, in the letters to the seven churches in Asia, that he who overcomes will enter into life (the weed infested soil is relevant here). Which passages of scripture declare that salvation can't be lost - and which of those depend on a particular interpretation of an ambiguous passage?

[37818]

Can it be said the the former type became apostates? How can they fall away from where they never really were in the first place?

exactly!

That is 100% contrary to scripture and church history.

Those who are of the stony ground do apostate. There is no basis for the good ground which bears fruit to apostate.

[Bill the Cat]

Those who are of the stony ground do apostate. There is no basis for the good ground which bears fruit to apostate.

Again, you are assuming that the stony ground and the thorny ground were not saved. They were. They were then guilty of apostasy. But they were no less Christian. You are taking the parable of the sower way past its intent. But apostasy is quite real, and a strict warning exists because it is real.

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." (Hebrews 6:4-8)

[Faber]

Again, you are assuming that the stony ground and the thorny ground were not saved. They were. They were then guilty of apostasy. But they were no less Christian. You are taking the parable of the sower way past its intent. But apostasy is quite real, and a strict warning exists because it is real.

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." (Hebrews 6:4-8)

[

But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (Hebrews 6:9, NASB)

[37818]

Again, you are assuming that the stony ground and the thorny ground were not saved. They were.

Based on what?

They were then guilty of apostasy.

The stony ground. But among the thorns, no fruit (Mark 4:7; John 15:2; Galatians 5:22, 23; Romans 8:9).

But they were no less Christian.

Professed (2 Corinthians 13:5; Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12).

You are taking the parable of the sower way past its intent.

How so?

But apostasy is quite real, and a strict warning exists because it is real.

How do you understand 2 Corinthians 4:3?

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls upon it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." (Hebrews 6:4-8)

Tasted does not mean to have drank (see Matthew 27:34).

". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. . . . -- Hebrews 6:9.

Now on the assumption that passage does speak of some were saved becoming lost. It is the end of the line, no more salvation ever, ". . . it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. . . ."

Now why is it important to you that some who you suppose were saved can become lost? If that is possible. It is then very important to prevent, would you not say so? How do you think this can be done? How do we change bad ground into good ground?

[theophilus]

They were then guilty of apostasy.

No genuine Christian can become an apostate.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
(1 John 2:19 ESV)

[Bill the Cat]

No genuine Christian can become an apostate.

Absolutely false. Hebrews is quite clear that apostasy is a real threat to believers, and the consequences are eternal damnation with no hope of repentance.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
(1 John 2:19 ESV)

This has nothing to do with those who are Christians. It refers to those who were near the Apostles but never converted, and they left the Apostles because they were not disciples. John says if they were disciples, they would have remained with the Apostles. This was a very particular situation about avoiding the wolves in sheep's clothing, not people who fall away.

[phat8594]

No genuine Christian can become an apostate.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
(1 John 2:19 ESV)

When you look at context, etc. - this verse isn't saying that if you have genuine faith, that you cannot apostatize. It just simply doesn't make sense, given the context.

It's an easy mistake, to be sure, and ultimately this is the type of misunderstanding that can be had by reading scripture through an 'apologetic hermeneutic' (i.e. trying to prove a point / particular theology)

[phat8594]

Absolutely false. Hebrews is quite clear that apostasy is a real threat to believers, and the consequences are eternal damnation with no hope of repentance.

I have always found it interesting to ponder that:

1. If apostasy is not possible.
2. And Paul warns of apostasy.

Then what use if the warning?

IOW, if apostasy isn't possible, then the warnings against apostasy seem to be useless as they would be describing an impossible hypothetical. And warnings of an impossible hypothetical seem a little absurd, if not useless in nature...

[Faber]

This has nothing to do with those who are Christians. It refers to those who were near the Apostles but never converted, and they left the Apostles because they were not disciples. John says if they were disciples, they would have remained with the Apostles. This was a very particular situation about avoiding the wolves in sheep's clothing, not people who fall away.

My understanding of the passages referring to the antichrists is that this was a heresy which eventually came to be known as docetism, the belief that Jesus never had a real physical body. It later led to gnosticism.

[theophilus]

I have always found it interesting to ponder that:

1. If apostasy is not possible.
2. And Paul warns of apostasy.

Then what use if the warning?

IOW, if apostasy isn't possible, then the warnings against apostasy seem to be useless as they would be describing an impossible hypothetical. And warnings of an impossible hypothetical seem a little absurd, if not useless in nature...

Apostasy is possible but an apostate is not a believer who turns from the truth but someone who professed to be a believer but was not really saved. Those who profess Christ are warned to make sure they really are saved.

We must guard against becoming apostates by making sure our salvation is real. Because there is a lot of false teaching concerning salvation it is possible for a person to make a profession of faith, join a church, and believe that he is a Christian when in fact he is not. There was a time when I was in that situation. I believed that the way to be saved was to be baptized in water and live a life of good works. During this time I could have become an apostate by turning from what I knew of the truth. I am thankful that that didn't happen but instead God allowed me to hear and understand the gospel and become a real believer. I have been reborn spiritually and received the gift of eternal life. My salvation is entirely a work of God and when he starts something he finishes it.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Philippians 1:6 ESV)