Penal Substitution

[Pentecost]

I have held to the Christus Victor model since I've heard of it, and indeed, that was early in my Christian walk. But, as I was having a conversation with an older gentleman than I (about a 30 year difference), and with a younger man than I (about 3 years), I found myself explaining earnestly that just as in the past, the wrath of God was delivered upon Israel by foreign nations, that Jesus took our place and suffered His wrath through to tools that were the Pharisees and Sadducees. I think I finally understand Penal Substitution and accept it in a way that never made sense to me when explained on old TWeb, or by Wikipedia, or even by that fellow who was on Unbelievable a couple years ago.

It was a very odd time because the words were out before I knew it, and in my mind I said to myself, "I didn't know I even believed in that anymore."

[shunyadragon]

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[rstrats]

shunyadragon,
re: "Had He desired to save His own life..."


Actually, according to Matthew 26:39 that was His desire: "...O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me..."

[Adam]

I reject this new-fangled Penal Substitution. It is not scriptural. Christus Victor is.

[The Remonstrant]

I have held to the Christus Victor model since I've heard of it, and indeed, that was early in my Christian walk. But, as I was having a conversation with an older gentleman than I (about a 30 year difference), and with a younger man than I (about 3 years), I found myself explaining earnestly that just as in the past, the wrath of God was delivered upon Israel by foreign nations, that Jesus took our place and suffered His wrath through to tools that were the Pharisees and Sadducees. I think I finally understand Penal Substitution and accept it in a way that never made sense to me when explained on old TWeb, or by Wikipedia, or even by that fellow who was on Unbelievable a couple years ago.

It was a very odd time because the words were out before I knew it, and in my mind I said to myself, "I didn't know I even believed in that anymore."

The way penal substitution is sometimes articulated by its adherents is very problematic.

[bling]

[37818]

I reject this new-fangled Penal Substitution. It is not scriptural. Christus Victor is.

". . . All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . ." -- Isaiah 53:6.

[rstrats]

37818,

Your avatar starts with an unobstructed path from man to the supreme being. Then sin creates a chasm between the two which is then followed by a bridge over the chasm with a hurdle sticking up in the middle. What about those who are not able to make it over the hurdle? Will they be tortured 24/7 for eternity because of their inability to clear the impediment?

[37818]

37818,

Your avatar starts with an unobstructed path from man to the supreme being. Then sin creates a chasm between the two which is then followed by a bridge over the chasm with a hurdle sticking up in the middle. What about those who are not able to make it over the hurdle? Will they be tortured 24/7 for eternity because of their inability to clear the impediment?

There is no hurdle stick there. Friend, you are imagining what is not really there. The crossing of that bridge is free. There is no toll to be payed to cross. And it is only a graphical illustration.

" Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ." -- 1 John 5:1.

[Pentecost]

Bling, that sounds almost exactly like how one of my professors explained the Moral Influence theory! It is a nice idea, but not my preferred way of understanding the atonement. God bless you, all who have posted, but this is a five month old thread that is only 10 posts long, can we please agree to stop posting in this one?

[hoghead1]

There is more than one theory of teh atonement. There is the penal=substitutionary model, the classical model, the perfect-pattern-man model, etc. I don't hold with the penal, as it posits unjust punishment of someone innocent, an extension of teh whipping-boy idea. Also, it makes God contradictory. He wants to forgive, but can't until the price is paid. That is a maj0or contradiction.

I have held to the Christus Victor model since I've heard of it, and indeed, that was early in my Christian walk. But, as I was having a conversation with an older gentleman than I (about a 30 year difference), and with a younger man than I (about 3 years), I found myself explaining earnestly that just as in the past, the wrath of God was delivered upon Israel by foreign nations, that Jesus took our place and suffered His wrath through to tools that were the Pharisees and Sadducees. I think I finally understand Penal Substitution and accept it in a way that never made sense to me when explained on old TWeb, or by Wikipedia, or even by that fellow who was on Unbelievable a couple years ago.

It was a very odd time because the words were out before I knew it, and in my mind I said to myself, "I didn't know I even believed in that anymore."