What are the essentials of the genuine Christian faith?

[tabibito]

I think Jesus's sacrifice resulted in a universal call of salvation to humanity (so everyone could be saved) but the actual rebirth only takes place with those who respond to it (so only some are saved). Paul talks in Colossians about the believers having been dead in their sins and how God made them alive with Him and forgave their sins. This sounds like a rebirth or at the very least the start of a rebirth.

Rising from the water of baptism is re-birth, and with the capacity to completely overcome sin. However, that is like saying that a new-born baby is born with the capacity (all being well) to run in a hurdle race (even if he can't really compete). The capacity is certainly present, but the actualised ability takes time to manifest.

God requires perfection from us (Matthew 5:48) but I take this to mean that we will eventually be transformed into morally perfect people. And this state will only be attained after death.

A number of passages show that it happens perhaps long after the initial commitment to Christ, but certainly prior to death.

The state of sinless perfection doesn't seem attainable in this life as Paul in Romans talks about the conflict between the flesh (our sinful nature) and the spirit (our reborn nature in Christ). And this sounds like an everyday struggle, not something he left behind. Not to mention if it was something that has been left behind I don't know what we are to make of the instructions on church discipline (why would there be a need if we are all sinless?). The Holy Spirit does guide and help us but I think its safe to say that Christians still have to deal with sin at least in this life.

There are many problems with that interpretation/application of Romans 7. However, a contrast is stated between the "I" who can not overcome the dictates of sin and being thereby thrown into self conflict, and the "you" and "we" who have overcome this conflict in chapters 6 and 8. What can be said even if Paul was referring to himself in chapter 7? In the eleven years that followed the writing of the letter until his death, did he make no advancement?

To explicate my view: the email sent is salvation extended, everyone getting the email in their inbox is everyone receiving the universal call, responding to the email that you'd like cake is conversion, and finally eating the cake is the eventual "complete" transformation. The part where this metaphor breaks down is the lack of any part of the metaphor to stand for sanctification between conversion and eventual perfection.

Sanctification is being set apart for particular purpose - in this case, holy purpose. It comes with belief and repentance. That is what makes it possible on rare occasion that a person can be baptised into the Holy Spirit even before he is baptised in water. However, this is a matter of cleansing - purification is a further step. In terms of an analogy, it is equivalent to washing the hands with soap and water (cleansing) and afterward rubbing the hands with anti bacterial solution (purification) - a process familiar to many who work in sensitive areas.

[37818]

Rising from the water of baptism is re-birth, and with the capacity to completely overcome sin. . . .

Hmm... Not in my Bible.

[tabibito]

Hmm... Not in my Bible.

Romans 6:3-6

₃ Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? ₄ Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ₅ For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, ₆ knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin

That is, of course, not the limit of the passages making the same kind of statement - but it is the most relevant to the current topic.

[37818]

Romans 6:3-6

₃ Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? ₄ Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ₅ For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, ₆ knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin

That is, of course, not the limit of the passages making the same kind of statement - but it is the most relevant to the current topic.

I agree that Romans 6:3-6 refers to water baptism [immersion]. But I do not see that passage is teaching that water baptism which is done into Christ's death, and coming out of the water to signify that we should walk in the new life makes the act the new birth. The Israelites walking through the mist crossing the Red Sea were baptized into Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2). And the Apostle Paul was not commanded to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17), indicating baptism is not part of the gospel though it does in fact accompany the gospel. Further more Paul mocks those who baptize into Christ's death and did not believe in the general resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29-31, 12-21).

[tabibito]

Moving to new thread.

[apostoli]

I think Jesus's sacrifice resulted in a universal call of salvation to humanity (so everyone could be saved) but the actual rebirth only takes place with those who respond to it (so only some are saved). Paul talks in Colossians about the believers having been dead in their sins and how God made them alive with Him and forgave their sins. This sounds like a rebirth or at the very least the start of a rebirth.

A.Paul suggests that rebirth entails a change of mind (a renewal). Consider Ezekiel 18:31 & 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh".

God requires perfection from us (Matthew 5:48)

Does he? Then why has the Paracletos (the Holy Spirit) been sent to help us "...the [Holy] Spirit also helps in our weaknesses..." (Romans 8:)

God requires perfection from us but I take this to mean that we will eventually be transformed into morally perfect people. And this state will only be attained after death.

How so?

The state of sinless perfection doesn't seem attainable in this life as Paul in Romans talks about the conflict between the flesh (our sinful nature) and the spirit (our reborn nature in Christ). And this sounds like an everyday struggle, not something he left behind. Not to mention if it was something that has been left behind I don't know what we are to make of the instructions on church discipline (why would there be a need if we are all sinless?). The Holy Spirit does guide and help us but I think its safe to say that Christians still have to deal with sin at least in this life.

Define sin! In the eyes of men Jesus sinned and is accused of sinning. Even scripture details his sinning eg: his vandelism of private/public property and common physical injury of persons. And yet, scripture tells us that Jesus was sinless! So in your opinion: What is sin?

I certainly agree with you that Jesus's sacrifice makes a relationship with God possible.

I am not really sure what you meant by "we are intrinsically already morally perfect, albeit we allow our mortality to suppress the inclination"...."

We were created in the image and likeness of God. Is God morally perfect?

Are you saying that people are already naturally good but that our impending deaths influence us to sin?

Mat 19:17 "[Jesus] said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".

To explicate my view: the email sent is salvation extended, everyone getting the email in their inbox is everyone receiving the universal call, responding to the email that you'd like cake is conversion, and finally eating the cake is the eventual "complete" transformation. The part where this metaphor breaks down is the lack of any part of the metaphor to stand for sanctification between conversion and eventual perfection.

I'd say: ...responding to the email is desire and finally eating the cake is the acceptance. The eventual "complete" transformation comes with its digestion.

[Paula]

A number of passages show that it happens perhaps long after the initial commitment to Christ, but certainly prior to death.

I've never really heard that perspective before. What passages indicate moral perfection comes before death?

A.Paul suggests that rebirth entails a change of mind (a renewal). Consider Ezekiel 18:31 & 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh".

No arguments here regarding rebirth involving a changing of the mind. However, that doesn't mean it applies to non-Christians.

Does he? Then why has the Paracletos (the Holy Spirit) been sent to help us "...the [Holy] Spirit also helps in our weaknesses..." (Romans 8:)

Since even after conversion we can still struggle with sin the Holy Spirit is a comfort because we aren't struggling alone but have God Himself to help us. But one of the goals is a complete moral transformation.

Define sin! In the eyes of men Jesus sinned and is accused of sinning. Even scripture details his sinning eg: his vandelism of private/public property and common physical injury of persons. And yet, scripture tells us that Jesus was sinless! So in your opinion: What is sin?

Morality is defined by God (a standard of goodness grounded in His character). What society thinks is right or wrong changes with the times and doesn't represent an eternal obligation like morality based in God does.

And Jesus didn't sin in the cleansing of the temple (I think that is the passage you are referring to but correct me if I am wrong). Those people were dishonoring the purpose of His temple as a place of worship. Jesus responded justly.

We were created in the image and likeness of God. Is God morally perfect?

We were also corrupted at the fall. Humanity was once good but isn't any longer.

[tabibito]

I've never really heard that perspective before. What passages indicate moral perfection comes before death?

For the most part it is a matter of a large number of passages trending toward a conclusion, rather than a specific group of passages making a statement. The whole "babes in Christ"(1 Peter 2:1-5) contrasted with "mature in Christ". John 16:13 speaks of the Holy Spirit giving guidance to the believer into all truth.
Romans 8: 22-26 (just before the bit earlier cited by Apostoli regarding the assistance provided by the Holy Spirit) .. and indeed, with the contrast between the (relatively) new believer in the second half of chapter 7 and the established believers in the first half of chapter 8.
1 John 3:2-3 admonishes believers to purify themselves ... Hebrews 10:14 (English versions are split about 50/50 on whether it is "the being sanctified" or "the sanctified" - Koine Greek shows "being sanctified").
The clear statement that the one who has become mature does not sin 1 John 3:6,9 + 5:18.
The process of purification that results in a state of not sinning is not achieved without risk, effort, or suffering - it is the third baptism, that by fire.

No arguments here regarding rebirth involving a changing of the mind. However, that doesn't mean it applies to non-Christians.

It is the non-Christians, change of mind that effects the change from non-Christian to Christian is it not?

Since even after conversion we can still struggle with sin the Holy Spirit is a comfort because we aren't struggling alone but have God Himself to help us. But one of the goals is a complete moral transformation.

A complete moral transformation would have its end not sinning; and being a goal, it is not something that happens on the instant, I would think.

Morality is defined by God (a standard of goodness grounded in His character). What society thinks is right or wrong changes with the times and doesn't represent an eternal obligation like morality based in God does.

Last I heard, yes ... which would mean that Christianity isn't about morality but about something else...holiness?

We were also corrupted at the fall. Humanity was once good but isn't any longer.

Corrupted - or simply failed to become holy so as to enter into life ... which is it? If the former, the Theory of Evolution, and the paleontological record, is declared false.

[apostoli]

No arguments here regarding rebirth involving a changing of the mind. However, that doesn't mean it applies to non-Christians.

Why not? buddhists and others incorporate the same idea into their philosophies.

Since even after conversion we can still struggle with sin the Holy Spirit is a comfort because we aren't struggling alone but have God Himself to help us. But one of the goals is a complete moral transformation.

I'd love to see your scriptural witness for such pessimism.

Morality is defined by God (a standard of goodness grounded in His character).

So you think that David's statutory rape of Bathsheba and the murder of her husband, upon which the foundation of the Temple cult is dependent, reflects God's morality?

What society thinks is right or wrong changes with the times and doesn't represent an eternal obligation like morality based in God does.

Maybe!

And Jesus didn't sin in the cleansing of the temple (I think that is the passage you are referring to but correct me if I am wrong). Those people were dishonoring the purpose of His temple as a place of worship. Jesus responded justly.

But he did sin in the eyes of mankind (especially Annas & the other high priests). Again i ask you to define sin...

We were also corrupted at the fall. Humanity was once good but isn't any longer.

Prove it! Unlike the USA, my country is based on a concept of "Commonwealth", we are not socialist, communists or any other American alarmist label, but we are predominately Christian!

[Paula]

For the most part it is a matter of a large number of passages trending toward a conclusion, rather than a specific group of passages making a statement. The whole "babes in Christ"(1 Peter 2:1-5) contrasted with "mature in Christ". John 16:13 speaks of the Holy Spirit giving guidance to the believer into all truth.
Romans 8: 22-26 (just before the bit earlier cited by Apostoli regarding the assistance provided by the Holy Spirit) .. and indeed, with the contrast between the (relatively) new believer in the second half of chapter 7 and the established believers in the first half of chapter 8.
1 John 3:2-3 admonishes believers to purify themselves ... Hebrews 10:14 (English versions are split about 50/50 on whether it is "the being sanctified" or "the sanctified" - Koine Greek shows "being sanctified").
The clear statement that the one who has become mature does not sin 1 John 3:6,9 + 5:18.
The process of purification that results in a state of not sinning is not achieved without risk, effort, or suffering - it is the third baptism, that by fire.

I agree that Christians are supposed to advance in maturity but I don't think that entails necessarily a sinless state. I think passages that seem to support that conclusion, like those in 1 John, are instead about priorities--that believers shouldn't have sinful lifestyles or shouldn't make sin their life (they should focus on doing good). There are other passages in the New Testament, such as 1 John 1:8, that suggest we struggle with sin throughout our lives.

Just out of curiosity, in regards to your view on present world sinlessness, how long after conversion do you see something like sinlessness happening and does it happen in every Christian's life?

It is the non-Christians, change of mind that effects the change from non-Christian to Christian is it not?

The change of mind I was referring to is the moral change not necessarily the initial commitment to Christ. I don't think the rebirth gets applied to everyone (as everyone isn't a Christian) but I do think the offer of salvation is available to everyone.

Last I heard, yes ... which would mean that Christianity isn't about morality but about something else...holiness?

I think Christianity is about God although consequentially because of that morality and holiness are involved.

Corrupted - or simply failed to become holy so as to enter into life ... which is it? If the former, the Theory of Evolution, and the paleontological record, is declared false.

I am not sure what evolution has to do with the spiritual nature of humanity. While I do think a moral corruption probably entails something on the physical side of things that wouldn't necessarily negate or support evolutionary theory.

Why not? buddhists and others incorporate the same idea into their philosophies.

Buddhism and other religions like it (such as Hinduism) are fundamentally different from Christianity.

I'd love to see your scriptural witness for such pessimism.

How is having the Holy Spirit help you pessimistic? I would say having God's help is a great comfort.

So you think that David's statutory rape of Bathsheba and the murder of her husband, upon which the foundation of the Temple cult is dependent, reflects God's morality?

What does the Bible describing something have to do with morality? The Bible also states that Cain killed Abel but that doesn't mean God approves.

But he did sin in the eyes of mankind (especially Annas & the other high priests). Again i ask you to define sin...

It's what God thinks on morality that matters. And from this it could also be said that what matters is what is objectively true. There are probably some toddlers who think 2+2=22 but their belief doesn't change the fundamental nature of math. Likewise, incorrect moral beliefs don't change the nature of morality.

Prove it! Unlike the USA, my country is based on a concept of "Commonwealth", we are not socialist, communists or any other American alarmist label, but we are predominately Christian!

When did I say I was an American or that I was for or against socialism or communism? Let's not get off topic.

But anyhow, are you saying that human beings don't have a deeply flawed moral nature? And if you are saying that how do you account for the evil in the world?

[tabibito]

I agree that Christians are supposed to advance in maturity but I don't think that entails necessarily a sinless state. I think passages that seem to support that conclusion, like those in 1 John, are instead about priorities--that believers shouldn't have sinful lifestyles or shouldn't make sin their life (they should focus on doing good). There are other passages in the New Testament, such as 1 John 1:8, that suggest we struggle with sin throughout our lives.

Sorting out the statements of 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 would mean a side trip to the intricacies of Koine Greek grammar. The outcome of that trip shows that the verses refer to a person making the claim to have never sinned. If you want the explanation in full I'll be happy to provide it.

Just out of curiosity, in regards to your view on present world sinlessness, how long after conversion do you see something like sinlessness happening and does it happen in every Christian's life?

First requirement is a hunger and thirst for righteousness. How long does it take for that to properly develop to the point that it is a person's raison-de-etre? I'd say (and the opinion can't be backed with anything definitive) that a person who makes the attempt without close association with a sempai to emulate could expect a term of 40 years (or more). Close association with a person who has gone ahead and providing a lead to follow would reduce the time, but I wouldn't expect it to take less than 7 years even for the most dedicated of adherents.

The change of mind I was referring to is the moral change not necessarily the initial commitment to Christ. I don't think the rebirth gets applied to everyone (as everyone isn't a Christian) but I do think the offer of salvation is available to everyone.

The most profound of moral changes occurs with initial commitment, or should be. Among other things it is a commitment to die to self - which incidentally, means living to Christ.

I think Christianity is about God although consequentially because of that morality and holiness are involved.

In the broad sense, yes. It plays out in the decision, and the work involved in bringing that decision to fruition, to become holy.

How is having the Holy Spirit help you pessimistic? I would say having God's help is a great comfort.

The primary mission of Christ involved setting people from sin. The person who sees sinlessness as an impossible ideal, and therefore considers himself bound by sin for life, denies that Christ fulfilled his mission. Even that is pessimistic. The promises of Christ regarding the believer in the believer's lifetime are conditional on the believer heeding the gospel. That makes for an even more pessimistic outlook.

What does the Bible describing something have to do with morality? The Bible also states that Cain killed Abel but that doesn't mean God approves.

A prophet was commanded by God to take a prostitute and have a child by her - and no, "take a wife of prostitution" doesn't mean "marry". Morality would dictate that such an action should not be undertaken.

It's what God thinks on morality that matters. And from this it could also be said that what matters is what is objectively true. There are probably some toddlers who think 2+2=22 but their belief doesn't change the fundamental nature of math. Likewise, incorrect moral beliefs don't change the nature of morality.

Certainly. There are a number of moral beliefs that do in fact have the potential to negatively impact on following God's requirement. That is not to say that a person can willy-nilly decide that an undertaking generally considered immoral could be taken just because a person considers it is what God wants, but the potential for not doing what God wants (because: morality) still exists.

[Paula]

Sorting out the statements of 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 would mean a side trip to the intricacies of Koine Greek grammar. The outcome of that trip shows that the verses refer to a person making the claim to have never sinned. If you want the explanation in full I'll be happy to provide it.

I appreciate the offer but I think we've pretty much reached the limit as far as we can discuss it among ourselves. It seems like an important issue so I am going to start another thread devoted to just this topic as I do want more feedback from others on whether or not this is an orthodox Christian position.

First requirement is a hunger and thirst for righteousness. How long does it take for that to properly develop to the point that it is a person's raison-de-etre? I'd say (and the opinion can't be backed with anything definitive) that a person who makes the attempt without close association with a sempai to emulate could expect a term of 40 years (or more). Close association with a person who has gone ahead and providing a lead to follow would reduce the time, but I wouldn't expect it to take less than 7 years even for the most dedicated of adherents.

Okay, that answers part of my question but concerning the latter part--what does your view say regarding all Christians. If it is a requirement of all Christians then it seems there are some problematic scenarios. For example--someone who converts and is martyred six months later or a sincere death bed conversion or someone who converts and is diagnosed with terminal cancer and dies soon after.

The primary mission of Christ involved setting people from sin. The person who sees sinlessness as an impossible ideal, and therefore considers himself bound by sin for life, denies that Christ fulfilled his mission. Even that is pessimistic. The promises of Christ regarding the believer in the believer's lifetime are conditional on the believer heeding the gospel. That makes for an even more pessimistic outlook.

I don't think that denies Christ His mission--a final transformation at the resurrection means He succeeded.

The opposite perspective would also be not just pessimistic but depressing--if sinlessness is a requirement for eternal life than those that honestly try and continually fail may just simply conclude they haven't been chosen by God/forgiven by God/etc and believe themselves to be without hope.

A prophet was commanded by God to take a prostitute and have a child by her - and no, "take a wife of prostitution" doesn't mean "marry". Morality would dictate that such an action should not be undertaken.

That particular book is a little bit beyond the scope of this discussion (as it would side-track it even more) but I will say that I think morality is absolute but not in a simplistic way (morality may very well be considered a ranked or graded absolutist system).

[tabibito]

Okay, that answers part of my question but concerning the latter part--what does your view say regarding all Christians. If it is a requirement of all Christians then it seems there are some problematic scenarios. For example--someone who converts and is martyred six months later or a sincere death bed conversion or someone who converts and is diagnosed with terminal cancer and dies soon after.

I don't think a case could be made against people who have not achieved the goal through no fault of their own. There is a somewhat significant difference between an achievable aim, all being well, and what can be achieved when all is not well. Holiness is something that we are required to work toward with due diligence, in the expectation that the Holy Spirit will give full assistance to that endeavour. The lesson of the fig tree applies here - reaching the point of not sinning can be likened to producing fruit in due season. The tree wasn't blasted for failing a full and proper crop before the due season, but for producing nothing.

The opposite perspective would also be not just pessimistic but depressing--if sinlessness is a requirement for eternal life than those that honestly try and continually fail may just simply conclude they haven't been chosen by God/forgiven by God/etc and believe themselves to be without hope.

Working toward achieving sinlessness is the requirement - and procrastination isn't approved. But with that in mind, no-one is expected to successfully compete in a hurdle race before he has learnt to walk.

[Paula]

Working toward achieving sinlessness is the requirement - and procrastination isn't approved. But with that in mind, no-one is expected to successfully compete in a hurdle race before he has learnt to walk.

So in your view would you say it's the effort (or the attempt) and not necessarily the result that matters?

[tabibito]

Romans 8:13

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Colossians 3:5

Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. ₆ Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, ₇ in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

Ephesians 5:5

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Ezekiel 18:4

Ezekiel 18:21

Ezekiel 18:26

Where does that leave the one who intends to sin? Or the one who does not commit to doing all that God requires?

Matthew 7:21

Luke 6:46

So to return to your earlier question - outcomes hinge on the firm commitment to turn away from self and toward God. Temporary failures to hold to that commitment may occur from time to time (and with decreasing frequency), but are not a determining factor - provided that they are indeed temporary and no more than failures. But they do exact a heavy toll on the Christian experience.