John 3:16 Support for Limited Atonement

[rhutchin]

3. I believed Christ died for all of mankind. ONLY securing salvation for His elect. But that those who further refuse God's grace - to be their Judge.
[Everyone's name being in the book of life until removed or sealed there.]

If Christ died for God's elect, His purpose in doing so is obvious - to gain the salvation of God's elect - God gave His son so that the elect would not perish.

But what of the non-elect? If it is true that Christ died for the non-elect, what purpose was served by doing so?

[dacristoy]

If Christ died for God's elect, His purpose in doing so is obvious - to gain the salvation of God's elect - God gave His son so that the elect would not perish.

But what of the non-elect? If it is true that Christ died for the non-elect, what purpose was served by doing so?

Perhaps a purpose that your infinite wisdom has not captured yet...

[phat8594]

But what of the non-elect? If it is true that Christ died for the non-elect, what purpose was served by doing so?

God's purpose was served. The purpose of doing perfect good with perfect love.

What purpose does it serve to invite people to a party if they don't come? What purpose does it serve to offer a hungry person a helping hand if they do not accept it? What purpose does it serve to offer to adopt someone's baby if they only decide to abort it? What purpose does it serve to give a child an inheritance to only see them squander it? What purpose does it serve to discipline a child if they go ahead and sin again? What purpose does it serve for God to offer people a way out from sin to only see them sin?

The purpose of an action is not determined by someone else's response to that action.

The world measures purpose by its own standards, while God's standard is love - and love gives even when it does not receive...it offers even when it is spurned. Christ is the very image of God, and the very image of perfect love.

[37818]

If Christ died for God's elect, His purpose in doing so is obvious - to gain the salvation of God's elect - God gave His son so that the elect would not perish.

But what of the non-elect? If it is true that Christ died for the non-elect, what purpose was served by doing so?

That they may have greater damnation upon them.

[Christianbookworm]

That they may have greater damnation upon them.

[rhutchin]

That they may have greater damnation upon them.

Greater damnation!!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes not in Him would incur greater damnation.

I don't think that works.

[rhutchin]

Perhaps a purpose that your infinite wisdom has not captured yet...

And nothing that God tells us in the Bible. God is very specific in telling us that He sent his son so that His elect would not perish. God says nothing about sending His son so that the non-elect would XXXX. The natural and logical conclusion is that sending Christ to die on the cross for sin had nothing to do with the non-elect.

[37818]

Greater damnation!!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes not in Him would incur greater damnation.

I don't think that works.

". . . but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " -- John 3:18.

". . . when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8.

[phat8594]

And nothing that God tells us in the Bible. God is very specific in telling us that He sent his son so that His elect would not perish. God says nothing about sending His son so that the non-elect would XXXX. The natural and logical conclusion is that sending Christ to die on the cross for sin had nothing to do with the non-elect.

First of all - you are still inserting the word 'elect' into John 3.

Secondly, the verse says:

Scripture Verse: John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

© Copyright Original Source

Since the 'world' consists of both the elect and non-elect, it would appear that God sending His son has a lot to do with the 'non-elect'. After all, God's sending His son was because of His love towards the world, not His love towards 'the elect'.

[rhutchin]

First of all - you are still inserting the word 'elect' into John 3.

We have: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

I claim that "whoever believes in him" equals the elect. You are saying that it does not. So, if those who believe in Christ are not the elect, who do you say they are?

Secondly, the verse says:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

Since the 'world' consists of both the elect and non-elect, it would appear that God sending His son has a lot to do with the 'non-elect'. After all, God's sending His son was because of His love towards the world, not His love towards 'the elect'.

The verse says two things:

1. God so loved the world.
2. God gave his only Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

While the world includes both elect and non-elect, God only deals with the elect with regard to the giving of His son.

[rhutchin]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes not in Him would incur greater damnation.

I don't think that works.

". . . but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. " -- John 3:18.

The idea of condemnation is judgment. We know that people are already condemned by their sin. Their sin is the basis for their condemnation or judgment - "...this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness (sin) rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Christ is the means to remove sin and escape judgment. In not believing in Christ, the person is judged for their sin.

". . . when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8.

That is another way of saying that they are sinners. It is sinners on whom Christ takes vengeance.

[37818]

The idea of condemnation is judgment. We know that people are already condemned by their sin. Their sin is the basis for their condemnation or judgment - "...this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness (sin) rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Christ is the means to remove sin and escape judgment. In not believing in Christ, the person is judged for their sin.



That is another way of saying that they are sinners. It is sinners on whom Christ takes vengeance.

True. And vengeance for not knowing God by not obeying the gospel.

It is written, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye." -- Ezekiel 18:32.

". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world."

[Cow Poke]

Isn't everybody starting to say the same things over and over again?

[rhutchin]

True. And vengeance for not knowing God by not obeying the gospel.

It is written, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye." -- Ezekiel 18:32.

". . . he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world."

OK. But we are still sinners and condemned because of our sin. As sinners, Paul says in Romans 3, "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one." And then in 1 Corinthians 1 "we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;" So, naturally, as sinners, we did not know God having no desire to seek Him and we do not obey the gospel because it is foolishness to us.

It is true that Christ, by His death on the cross, became the propitiation for sin, all sin, but ONLY with regard to believers - God's elect - do we read:

1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Galatians 1
4 [Christ] gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Hebrews 1
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1 Peter 2
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Thus, we read in John 3, "God gave his only begotten Son, that His elect should not perish,..." God did not purpose anything for the non-elect but their condemnation/judgment because they are sinners.

[37818]

OK. But we are still sinners and condemned because of our sin. As sinners, Paul says in Romans 3, "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one." And then in 1 Corinthians 1 "we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;" So, naturally, as sinners, we did not know God having no desire to seek Him and we do not obey the gospel because it is foolishness to us.

It is true that Christ, by His death on the cross, became the propitiation for sin, all sin, but ONLY with regard to believers - God's elect - do we read:

1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Galatians 1
4 [Christ] gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Hebrews 1
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1 Peter 2
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Thus, we read in John 3, "God gave his only begotten Son, that His elect should not perish,..." God did not purpose anything for the non-elect but their condemnation/judgment because they are sinners.

". . . Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 5:11.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Ah, if we accidentally persuade one the non-elect to get saved, I don't think God will mind making that one one of His elect.

". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ." -- 2 Peter 3:9.