Annihilationism, Nirvana and Atheism.

[37818]

No, You haven't. If you had really shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, I would have remembered it. Also, if you really had shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, you would have posted it again just to show me up, rather than just claiming that you already showed it. There is not a single verse in the entire bible that says that wicked souls go to hell when they die where they suffer for all of eternity. But there are dozens of verses in the Bible that say that the wicked will perish. I don't know why you don't accept them as true.

Maybe not all in this thread.

I had cited Revelation 14:

". . . the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, . . ." -- Revelation 14:11.

you dismissed the smoke, but ignored "no rest" day or night.

And you did not answer my questions. But repeat your claim which has nothing to do with hell. I addressed on such claim you made:

Psalm 37:10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. True or False?

True. [v.9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.]

The wicked will be gone from the earth. Hence no more. That does not say they will cease being in hell for all eternity.

Do you not understand? We are not understanding the same Bible texts the same way. You have not or refuse to explain how you come to your meaning of death, destruction and perishing. I have given mine. Do I need to repeat it?

[Anthropos]

My primary verses are the classic universalist texts of 1 Timothy 4:10 which speaks of Christ being the savior of all men and 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 in which God is said to unite all things to Himself. I just don't find the alternate explanations of these verses very convincing.

Beyond that, I just appeal to logic. If some will be eternally in Hell, then either God has completely given up on them and no longer knocks on their heart urging them to repent, which I don't think is possible given His love. Or there are some beings that can outlast or overcome God by their free will.

Kelp, I appreciate you sharing your main reasons for embracing Christian universalism.

Three years ago I was a hopeful universalist, and spent much of time reading books and listening to lectures by Christian universalists in hopes that I could accept their interpretation of Scripture to be based upon what I would view as good hermeneutics (the kind that's good regardless if we're interpreting a Pauline epistle or any other literature).

I remain a traditionalist (metaphorical view), because none of the people I studied from met the criteria for what I would consider good hermeneutics. I do at times struggle with the traditional view of hell, but when I do it's not over my overall interpretation of Scripture in this area, but over the credibility of Scripture itself in teaching us truth from God. What helps me to continue standing in faith when I do struggle in this area, is being reminded of what I believe to be Jesus' view of Scripture, and what I believe he taught of continuing to teach us through his church after the Holy Spirit was sent.

We may not agree on this, but I personally don't think our differences on this should divide us in Christian fellowship. For although beliefs matter, not all beliefs matter equally.

Btw, one of the books I read when I was considering universalism is, Universal Salvation?: The Current Debate. It's really good for examining different perspectives on this. Have you read it? If so, what did you think about it?

[Timothy]

I have done so. And you simply choose not to accept them. And with little to no explanation.

No, You haven't. If you had really shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, I would have remembered it. Also, if you really had shown me a verse that says that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell, you would have posted it again just to show me up, rather than just claiming that you already showed it. There is not a single verse in the entire bible that says that wicked souls go to hell when they die where they suffer for all of eternity. But there are dozens of verses in the Bible that say that the wicked will perish. I don't know why you don't accept them as true.

[Kelp(p)]

My primary verses are the classic universalist texts of 1 Timothy 4:10 which speaks of Christ being the savior of all men and 1 Corinthians 15:25-27 in which God is said to unite all things to Himself. I just don't find the alternate explanations of these verses very convincing.

Beyond that, I just appeal to logic. If some will be eternally in Hell, then either God has completely given up on them and no longer knocks on their heart urging them to repent, which I don't think is possible given His love. Or there are some beings that can outlast or overcome God by their free will.

[Anthropos]

I understand. This is not a conclusion I came to lightly, believe me.

Sounds like you've given this a lot of thought. Why are you a universalist? Not asking for a lot of reasons, but what you would consider the best reason(s) for believing your view of universalism.

[37818]

Can you give me the Chapter and Verse where the Bible teaches that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell?

I have done so. And you simply choose not to accept them. And with little to no explanation.

Because I can give you the Chapter and Verse that says that the wicked will be no more. If there is a verse that says the opposite of "the wicked will be no more", I really would like to see it.

I had answered this too. Can you show me that "the wicked will be no more" refers to being in Hell and not the mere fact they will not inherit the Earth?

Even the verses you just quoted say that the wicked will perish, that they will die and not live. I don't know why you don't understand this.

I do understand it. You don't. Now that answer is not very helpful, I know. But the fact is we have different understanding of the Biblical terms and what they mean.

[Timothy]

I agree with this sentiment too. ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ." -- 2 Peter 3:9.
" . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. " -- Ezekiel 18:32.

It is the Bible which teaches that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell. You my friend have got it wrong.

Can you give me the Chapter and Verse where the Bible teaches that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell? Because I can give you the Chapter and Verse that says that the wicked will be no more. If there is a verse that says the opposite of "the wicked will be no more", I really would like to see it. Even the verses you just quoted say that the wicked will perish, that they will die and not live. I don't know why you don't understand this.

[37818]

I'm glad that we agree (on this at least). I like the doctrine of Christian Universalism, I like everybody I meet who holds that view. I just can't reconcile it with what I am reading. I wish that I could. I hope that everyone will take the warning of death seriously so that they all will have eternal life. I just don't believe that they will.

I agree with this sentiment too. ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ." -- 2 Peter 3:9.
" . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. " -- Ezekiel 18:32.

[Kelp(p)]

I'm glad that we agree (on this at least). I like the doctrine of Christian Universalism, I like everybody I meet who holds that view. I just can't reconcile it with what I am reading. I wish that I could. I hope that everyone will take the warning of death seriously so that they all will have eternal life. I just don't believe that they will.

I understand. This is not a conclusion I came to lightly, believe me.

[37818]

If the lost are ultimately annihilated, the saved who receive eternal life will still be saved and will still inherit eternal life, just as Jesus Christ said. It's true that a person who has been annihilated isn't going to know anything at all. That's what happens when a person is destroyed, just as the Bible says. If the lost are ultimately annihilated, the view of the Bible-Believing-Christian who believes that the wages of sin is death will be ultimately true. However, if the lost are eternally tormented alive forever in hell, then the Bible is wrong to claim that the wages of sin is death. If the lost are eternally tormented in hell forever, then the Pagan Greeks got it correct, and Jesus Christ, Paul and all the Apostles and Prophets got it wrong.

It is the Bible which teaches that dead souls suffer an eternity in hell. You my friend have got it wrong.

. . . the saved who receive eternal life will still be saved and will still inherit eternal life, just as Jesus Christ said.

We agree on this.

Now, if my understanding is wrong, and the the lost do not suffer for eternity as I understand. My misunderstanding will not cause what is not true to be true. It is not going to happen.

By the same, if your understanding of the lost being ultimately annihilated as you profess to understand it is wrong. Then your misunderstanding will not alleviate the eternal suffering of dead souls. Your misunderstanding will not cause what is not true to be true. It is not going to happen.

[Timothy]

As do I.

I'm glad that we agree (on this at least). I like the doctrine of Christian Universalism, I like everybody I meet who holds that view. I just can't reconcile it with what I am reading. I wish that I could. I hope that everyone will take the warning of death seriously so that they all will have eternal life. I just don't believe that they will.

[Kelp(p)]

As do I.

[Timothy]

You charge in here guns a-blazing essentially asking me, "Are you an Annihlationist or are you against the Bible?" That's not how you have a discussion, that's how you monolog at someone. Hence my joke about classic loaded questions like, "Have you stopped beating your wife today?."
For those who care more about inerrantism than the love and goodness of God, I'm sure that the most important thing is that it (allegedly) agrees with the Bible. For those of us who are sick and tired of putting theology over basic decency, there are other priorities.
What kind of "life" is an eternity of conscious torture? Is somebody on a ventilator with no brain activity "alive?" Technically, but it's not really a life in any meaningful sense. You're acting like an atheist who can't understand how God could possibly bring someone back from the dead because "dead is dead."
Death is separation from God. But since God is everywhere, that's not actually possible. So instead, those who hate Him feel his love as a burning fire which we call Hell. It begins in this life in a lesser form and carries over into the next. But God never quits knocking on the door to our heart even as we reject Him. Since nobody's will is as powerful as God's, eventually all will repent.

But, if you really wanna play the literalism game- 1 Timothy 4:10, All means all, right?

1 Cor 15:25-27 (emphasis mine) If death is destroyed, then obviously you can't have a bunch of people who have died. That's a contradiction. And again, all means all, everything means everything...



Though the truth is, I don't need chapter and verse. God is love and love never gives up on people, no matter how hard-hearted they are. It's simple logic, even if the Bible says otherwise.

I believe that you've taken me wrong. My bad. I believe that God resurrects the dead and gives them eternal life.

[Kelp(p)]

I never asked you if you had stopped beating your wife.

You charge in here guns a-blazing essentially asking me, "Are you an Annihlationist or are you against the Bible?" That's not how you have a discussion, that's how you monolog at someone. Hence my joke about classic loaded questions like, "Have you stopped beating your wife today?."

You said that Annihilationism's "Big Appeal" was cosmic euthanasia. It's true that the lost are not tortured forever, but that is not the reason to believe that it is true. Your assumption is incorrect. The reason that Annihilationism is true is that it agrees with what the Bible says.

For those who care more about inerrantism than the love and goodness of God, I'm sure that the most important thing is that it (allegedly) agrees with the Bible. For those of us who are sick and tired of putting theology over basic decency, there are other priorities.

Your opinion is that I am taking the word "death" too literally. That's interesting. Are you claiming that "death" actually means the exact opposite of death, that the wages of sin is death actually means that the wages of sin is eternal life in hell being tortured

What kind of "life" is an eternity of conscious torture? Is somebody on a ventilator with no brain activity "alive?" Technically, but it's not really a life in any meaningful sense. You're acting like an atheist who can't understand how God could possibly bring someone back from the dead because "dead is dead."

or since you are a universalist, what? Death means "not death, but a cosmic object lesson"??? Chapter and Verse Please, and Thank you.

Death is separation from God. But since God is everywhere, that's not actually possible. So instead, those who hate Him feel his love as a burning fire which we call Hell. It begins in this life in a lesser form and carries over into the next. But God never quits knocking on the door to our heart even as we reject Him. Since nobody's will is as powerful as God's, eventually all will repent.

But, if you really wanna play the literalism game- 1 Timothy 4:10,

"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

All means all, right?

1 Cor 15:25-27 (emphasis mine)

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

If death is destroyed, then obviously you can't have a bunch of people who have died. That's a contradiction. And again, all means all, everything means everything...



Though the truth is, I don't need chapter and verse. God is love and love never gives up on people, no matter how hard-hearted they are. It's simple logic, even if the Bible says otherwise.

[Timothy]

No I haven't stopped stopped beating my wife yet, but thanks for asking.

I'm a universalist, so I don't have a dog in this fight either way. If I did I'd say you're taking the word "death" far too literally, though I'm so greatful that you're giving my position an easy argument out of 1 Tim 4:10

I never asked you if you had stopped beating your wife.

You said that Annihilationism's "Big Appeal" was cosmic euthanasia. It's true that the lost are not tortured forever, but that is not the reason to believe that it is true. Your assumption is incorrect. The reason that Annihilationism is true is that it agrees with what the Bible says.

Your opinion is that I am taking the word "death" too literally. That's interesting. Are you claiming that "death" actually means the exact opposite of death, that the wages of sin is death actually means that the wages of sin is eternal life in hell being tortured or since you are a universalist, what? Death means "not death, but a cosmic object lesson"??? Chapter and Verse Please, and Thank you.

Death is God's way of telling us to slow down? Is that it? I believe death is God's way of telling us "you are not alive anymore".