Annihilationism, Nirvana and Atheism.

[Anthropos]

"And you did he make alive, when ye were dead..."
If "dead" doesn't mean "dead", but "alive" instead of "dead", then how did God make "alive" those who "were alive (dead)" If they are alive and not dead, then they can't be made alive.

Of course those who are spiritually dead are not physically dead in Eph. 2, but spiritual death is just as real as physical death. We're not taught of only one kind of real death, physical death, for we're not taught that we exist only as a physical body (Matt. 10:28; 1 Thess. 5:23).

[Kelp(p)]

"And you did he make alive, when ye were dead..."
If "dead" doesn't mean "dead", but "alive" instead of "dead", then how did God make "alive" those who "were alive (dead)" If they are alive and not dead, then they can't be made alive.

You're conflating spiritual and physical death. If one can be suffering estrangement from God while they still exist, then why can't Hell be the same way? And remember, we agree that the mortality of the soul is irrelevant to the discussion.

[Timothy]

Read Ephesians 2:1 . . . . Please give your understanding of being dead as spoken there. Thanks.

Do you agree that those who are dead in their trespasses and sins are not literally dead? So given that they are not literally dead, the passage uses the term "dead" in a figurative sense.

[37818]

"And you did he make alive, when ye were dead..."
If "dead" doesn't mean "dead", but "alive" instead of "dead", then how did God make "alive" those who "were alive (dead)" If they are alive and not dead, then they can't be made alive.

Read Ephesians 2:1 . . . . Please give your understanding of being dead as spoken there. Thanks.

[Timothy]

Yeah, that's the crux of the issue, I think. Annihlationism's insistence that "dead means dead" strikes me as an attempt to have it both ways. Spiritual death in this life can be a metaphor but the state of the damned must be absolutely literal. I don't see how that follows at all.

"And you did he make alive, when ye were dead..."
If "dead" doesn't mean "dead", but "alive" instead of "dead", then how did God make "alive" those who "were alive (dead)" If they are alive and not dead, then they can't be made alive.

[Kelp(p)]

". . . And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), . . ." -- Ephesians 2:1-5. ASV

Yeah, that's the crux of the issue, I think. Annihlationism's insistence that "dead means dead" strikes me as an attempt to have it both ways. Spiritual death in this life can be a metaphor but the state of the damned must be absolutely literal. I don't see how that follows at all.

[37818]

It doesn't mean the woman is literally dead, does it. Try "metaphorically dead". Make more sense? As good as dead, even while she lives. Certainly not headed for eternal life, is she?

". . . And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), . . ." -- Ephesians 2:1-5. ASV

[Timothy]

What do you believe "is dead" means in the following text?

"She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day, but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives."
--1 Timothy 5:5-6 ESV

I'm trying to stay away from here but what the heck, right? Hockeysticks. I like you guys too much to stay away.

It doesn't mean the woman is literally dead, does it. Try "metaphorically dead". Make more sense? As good as dead, even while she lives. Certainly not headed for eternal life, is she?

[Anthropos]

I think that being dead excludes the dead from being conscious. (I knew I couldn't stay away. Bad me.)

What do you believe "is dead" means in the following text?

"She who is truly a widow, left all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day, but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives."
--1 Timothy 5:5-6 ESV

[Timothy]

I think that being dead excludes the dead from being conscious. (I knew I couldn't stay away. Bad me.)

[37818]

Eternal Life is life that is eternal which is never ending life, which is immortality.

In one sense. But my example is correct. Christians NOW have eternal life, but are not yet immortal. We as Christians now having eternal life do in fact die physically.

Regarding the resurrection and transformation of the living saints:
". . . For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:53.

The concept that a dead soul remains conscious is an inherent contradiction. A "dead life" is a contradiction just like "dark light", "heavy lightness", "dry water", or "hot coldness".

Not necessarily. a dead soul, that is, a dead life is inherently contradictory, phrase wise. But consciousness while it is associated with being alive, there is nothing logically that I can see which would exclude the dead from being conscious (Luke 16:19-31).

[Timothy]

Well you have conflated the terms, immortal with eternal. For example: Christians now have eternal life, but are not yet immortal (as in the resurrection). So to believe the soul is mortal does not necessitate that the soul is not eternal. In which in concept, that a soul can be a dead soul, and yet remain conscious for all eternity.

Eternal Life is life that is eternal which is never ending life, which is immortality. The concept that a dead soul remains conscious is an inherent contradiction. A "dead life" is a contradiction just like "dark light", "heavy lightness", "dry water", or "hot coldness".

I'm going to try to stay away from these kinds of discussions for a while, I don't know if I can. It seems fruitless to discuss this. God will do what God is going to do whether or not you and I agree. I don't need to convince anyone of anything.

[Timothy]

Conditional Immortality in and of itself doesn't rule out eternal conscious torment. God could still eternally uphold the souls of the damned.

I suppose that is true, depending on the "condition" in Conditional Immortality. For Christian Conditional Immortality, the condition for immortality is belief in Jesus Christ. Lacking that condition, those who reject Jesus Christ do not receive immortality.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[37818]

Thank you for that description of Conditional Immortality. I believe that Conditional Immortality is what the Bible expressly teaches. But this also means that the souls of those who will be destroyed are not immortal, they are mortal, they are not eternal. So there can be no eternal conscious torment.

Well you have conflated the terms, immortal with eternal. For example: Christians now have eternal life, but are not yet immortal (as in the resurrection). So to believe the soul is mortal does not necessitate that the soul is not eternal. In which in concept, that a soul can be a dead soul, and yet remain conscious for all eternity.

[KingsGambit]

Conditional Immortality in and of itself doesn't rule out eternal conscious torment. God could still eternally uphold the souls of the damned.

The "conditional" in the phrase generally implies there is some condition that has to be met, and I don't think the concept that God could (but won't) follow through with the threat in Matthew 10:28 really does justice to the term.