Annihilationism, Nirvana and Atheism.

[37818]

. . . This is destruction, not eternal punishment . . .

So then do you in general agree with Timothy?

hell where the worm never dieds
The background is Is 66:24, where what never dies is the worm eating their dead bodies

That is pure interpretation. It does not say "worms." Does each soul have a private worm eating its body? That worm is said to never die. So how long does that dead body last?

I'm of the understanding their "worm" [in the singular] which never dies is the consciousness of the dead soul. Just as Jesus soul (Isaiah 53:10, 12) died on the cross (Psalm 22:1, 6, 16) completing the payment of death for our sins with His blood before He physically died (John 19:28). It is my view, that how Jesus payed the debt for sin on the cross shows the conscious suffering of the lost in hell (Mark 9:48). And after Jesus completed this, His fellowship was restored with His Father (John 19:30; Luke 23:46).

[Timothy]

Here is where you are wrong. How so? NONE of these truths are at issue. I'm not denying them. I just understand then, not as you would like me to. Here is your problem: You do not explain why there is any suffering at all. Since they are dead. ". . . to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever," makes no sense. They're dead! ". . . outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," makes no sense. Jesus' words makes no sense where He says, ". . . Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell . . ." There should be no suffering at all. Yet, ". . . there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth!" Your view does not explain this, nor for how long. Hay, the dead are dead, are they not?
The symbolism of revelation is explained. And even so, there are disagreements on this book. What is yet future, its real historical past. Explain the symbolism of "the smoke of their torment." And why that is or will not be literal. In your view, death is death. So why is there any torment at all? And if there is, where is it explained to be temporal? You have explained nothing except death is death. I'm waiting.

You are wrong. I've shown you what the Bible says, but you wish to deny it in order to hang on desperately to your cherished belief in eternal conscious torment after death. Have fun with that.


By the way, for your own information, I do NOT believe that dead people are suffering so your point is completely off base.

[Timothy]

I am deleting this post.

[hedrick]

So then do you in general agree with Timothy?

Yes. However I'm uncomfortable being identified with any one position. Death, destruction, punishment, the whole world being redeemed. I don't think we have an exact picture here. But eternal torment seems the one piece that's least likely to be part of the final picture.

That is pure interpretation. It does not say "worms." Does each soul have a private worm eating its body? That worm is said to never die. So how long does that dead body last?

I'm of the understanding their "worm" [in the singular] which never dies is the consciousness of the dead soul. Just as Jesus soul (Isaiah 53:10, 12) died on the cross (Psalm 22:1, 6, 16) completing the payment of death for our sins with His blood before He physically died (John 19:28). It is my view, that how Jesus payed the debt for sin on the cross shows the conscious suffering of the lost in hell (Mark 9:48). And after Jesus completed this, His fellowship was restored with His Father (John 19:30; Luke 23:46).

Talk about pure interpretation. A pile of dead bodies; worm. The obvious interpretation is consciousness of the dead soul? Not much basis for discussion here, I don't think.

[37818]

You are wrong. I've shown you what the Bible says, but you wish to deny it in order to hang on desperately to your cherished belief in eternal conscious torment after death. Have fun with that.


By the way, for your own information, I do NOT believe that dead people are suffering so your point is completely off base.

I understood that. And my belief is not a need except that what the word of God says and means.

Please explain the "outer darkness." Show that it it is not to refer to the place of a furnace of fire, "weeping and the gnashing of teeth." Explain the reason for " the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever." (Jude) Since the dead are not to be conscious.

[Timothy]

So then do you in general agree with Timothy?

Yes. However I'm uncomfortable being identified with any one position.

I know, the true view is not called Timothyism. I merely agree with what the Bible says.

[Timothy]

I understood that. And my belief is not a need except that what the word of God says and means.

Please explain the "outer darkness." Show that it it is not to refer to the place of a furnace of fire, "weeping and the gnashing of teeth." Explain the reason for " the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever." (Jude) Since the dead are not conscious.

Have you read Jude? He says that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is held out as an example of the coming judgment. I don't know how it could be more clear and yet you still disagree.

[37818]

Have you read Jude? He says that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is held out as an example of the coming judgment. I don't know how it could be more clear and yet you still disagree.

That maybe the bases for your argument. But you are not making it.
Jude writes of false brethren,
". . . But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. . . . These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Of which Jesus said, ". . . cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: . . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

[37818]

Yes. However I'm uncomfortable being identified with any one position. Death, destruction, punishment, the whole world being redeemed. I don't think we have an exact picture here. But eternal torment seems the one piece that's least likely to be part of the final picture.

Then can we deal with the Biblical reasons one thinks that ECT is true?

Talk about pure interpretation. A pile of dead bodies; worm. The obvious interpretation is consciousness of the dead soul? Not much basis for discussion here, I don't think.

Do this. What does those holy scriptures say. What is interpreted, read into, or denied? Point by point. We can try some true and false questions:

True or false: Jesus' soul died on the cross? (Isaiah 53:6, 10, 12.)
True or false: Jesus completed what He was to do on the cross? (John 19:28.)
True or false: Jesus remained conscious all the time He was on the cross until He physically died? (John 19:30; Luke 23:46.)

[Timothy]

That maybe the bases for your argument. But you are not making it.
Jude writes of false brethren,
". . . But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. . . . These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Of which Jesus said, ". . . cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: . . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

I would like to know why you don't think that eternal death is eternal punishment. I've heard ECTists make the Matthew 25:46 argument at least a hundred times and it never holds water, as far as I can see. We BOTH believe that the lost go off to eternal punishment. We are discussing what that punishment consists of, eternal death or eternal conscious torment. Matthew 25:46 doesn't specify WHAT the eternal punishment consists of, but it does say that only the OTHER group has eternal consciousness, eternal life.

[37818]

I would like to know why you don't think that eternal death is eternal punishment. I've heard ECTists make the Matthew 25:46 argument at least a hundred times and it never holds water, as far as I can see. We BOTH believe that the lost go off to eternal punishment. We are discussing what that punishment consists of, eternal death or eternal conscious torment. Matthew 25:46 doesn't specify WHAT the eternal punishment consists of, but it does say that only the OTHER group has eternal consciousness, eternal life.

If one is dead, as you understand being dead, eternity can no longer matter.

[Timothy]

If one is dead, as you understand being dead, eternity can no longer matter.

It doesn't matter to them anymore once they have been destroyed, and the Bible never says that it does matter to them after they have been destroyed.

Can you describe the doctrine of Conditional Immortality in your own words? Please give it a try.

[hedrick]

I understood that. And my belief is not a need except that what the word of God says and means.

Please explain the "outer darkness." Show that it it is not to refer to the place of a furnace of fire, "weeping and the gnashing of teeth." Explain the reason for " the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever." (Jude) Since the dead are not to be conscious.

My understanding is that the outer darkness is Sheol. Not really hell, with God tormenting people. Rather death, which was considered in the OT to be a shadowy existence. It's also possible Matthew (whose phrase this is) didn't have a specific geography of the afterlife, and the outer darkness was the ultimate exclusion from the Kingdom of God, but not a specific place. The only weeping and gnashing of teeth in Luke is 13:28, where it simply describes someone who is thrown out of the Kingdom, without a specific final resting place mentioned.

It is in a sense the same thing as the furnace of fire, since that image refers to the furnace in Daniel, which would be death or destruction. Note that Mat 13:42 combines both.

Jude is a reference to the myth of the Watchers. It describes a group of fallen angels. They are held under the earth until the day of Judgement. So this isn't really relevant to the ultimate fate of humans, since Jude 6 is clearly referring to angels, and says that it's temporary. (Yes, it says eternal chains. But remember that in the Bible, "eternal" isn't always everlasting. The rest of the verse says they're held in these eternal chains until Judgement.)

As usual, I need to point out that a variety of images, all associated with death or destruction, are used. If you take them literally, the outer darkness of Sheol with a shadowy existence contradicts destruction with fire. But I don't think the images are intended to be taken so literally. This is a set of conventional images for rejection in the Judgement, just as today people talk about Peter at the pearly gates without intending that to be taken literally.

[hedrick]

I think the imagery in the Rev is actually consistent with what I described above.

We have Satan confined to the pit until the final judgement, as in Jude. Those who received the mark of the beast are killed but not put into the fire with the beast and false prophet. Then we have the final judgement where everyone is judged, with the rejects going into fire which is also called the second death. But in 22:15 we have people outside the city. This tells us we're dealing with multiple images, and not a literal account, since otherwise there would be no one left to be outside the city. They'd all be in the lake of fire which is the second death.

In general we have a set of images of death, destruction and exclusion. It's pretty much the same variety as found in the Gospels.

If you really feel the need to come up with a single, literal explanation, I think destruction is the best.

[37818]

It doesn't matter to them anymore once they have been destroyed, and the Bible never says that it does matter to them after they have been destroyed.

We have a different understandings on this.

Can you describe the doctrine of Conditional Immortality in your own words? Please give it a try.

Simple. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23a). The prophet Ezekiel quotes God, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die." (18:4). James writes, "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (5:20.)


That immortality of the soul is conditional on salvation. Now you do still realized, my understanding of condition of the dead soul is not your view. Since I also hold to ECT of the dead souls. Most Christians who think that immortality of the soul is Biblical because ECT is regarded as Biblical. So Conditional Immortality is considered by them to be rank heresy.