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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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All men are evil/sinners, deserve to be destroyed

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  • dacristoy
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?
    We're not worthy of redemption, still God is worthy to redeem us...

    My question is where in scripture is "worthy of destruction applicable before the application of redemption". I believe that the bible does teach that those that reject the salvation that Christ brings are worthy of destruction... But does the bible position us as worthy of destruction before the offer of salvation is rejected. IOW, which comes first, the chicken or the egg...

    Obviously we do not merit salvation, it is the gift of God... That point is foundationally made, is the point of worthy of destruction foundationally made in scripture...
    Last edited by dacristoy; 05-09-2014, 07:06 PM.

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  • Thoughtful Monk
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.
    How about in the sense of man's redemption is worthy of His effort to achieve?

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Jed is right. Spoken like a true apophatic.

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  • Jedidiah
    replied
    There is a short sightedness in this discussion. We are not given all knowledge (in spite of what FarEastBirt seems to think). We do not know why God created man the way he did. It was his pleasure to do so. We can never, even in glory, come close to understanding all about God. He is not super strong, super smart man. He is so far above us we can not even comprehend the distance.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Redemption from the body of death, which is now finished, thanks be to Christ Jesus:

    Romans 7:14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    ******21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!


    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Well, duh. We're just saying that we didn't deserve redemption for our sins, but God redeems us anyway if we accept the offer. How could you deserve to be redeemed? If you didn't do anything wrong, what would you need redeeming from?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebook...-law-of-moses/

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  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    How on earth could you be worthy of redemption? Sounds contradictory. Unless you think we earn our way to heaven, in which case, why did Jesus have to die?

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.
    How on earth could you be worthy of redemption? Sounds contradictory. Unless you think we earn our way to heaven, in which case, why did Jesus have to die?

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
    At what point did God determine men worthy of redemption. Gleaned from John 3:16...
    I don't think the Bible says that men are worthy of redemption.

    Leave a comment:


  • dacristoy
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I don't know if any passages use wording like that but the principle can easily be derived from Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.
    At what point did God determine men worthy of redemption. Gleaned from John 3:16...

    Leave a comment:


  • Paprika
    replied
    Use Ephesians:
    we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

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  • KingsGambit
    replied
    I don't know if any passages use wording like that but the principle can easily be derived from Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23.

    Leave a comment:


  • dacristoy
    started a topic All men are evil/sinners, deserve to be destroyed

    All men are evil/sinners, deserve to be destroyed

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