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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Are Christians Permitted to Eat Unclean Animals?
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Last edited by Christianbookworm; 07-14-2019, 06:53 PM.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostI agree that all of the other commands are how to obey the greatest two commands, which is why I am arguing in favor of obeying all of the other commands.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostI completely agree with Paul's stance against the Judaizers and have never suggested that all Gentiles need to become circumcised in order to become saved. Paul was not an enemy of God, so his problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching followers of God to follow Him commands, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
Sin was in the world before the Law was given (Romans 5:13), so there was nothing that became or ceased to be righteous or sinful when the Mosaic Covenant was made, but rather the Mosaic Law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For instance, in Genesis 39:9, Joseph knew that it was a sin against God to commit adultery, so that didn't become sinful when the Mosaic Covenant was made and didn't cease to be sinful after it has become obsolete.
Even if God had never made any covenants with man, then there would still exist a way to act in accordance with God's nature and express His character traits, which we should still follow. For example, God judged the world with the Flood because of their sin and judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their Lawless deeds even though they weren't in a covenant relationship with Him (2 Peter 2:6-8), so it is not good to focus so much on whom the Law was given to that you lose sight of whom the Law was given by.
The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the character of God as it does to describe the character of God's Law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to express His character traits. There are many verse that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in His ways, so it was given to teach us about who God is and about how to express His character traits in accordance with His nature. So by expressing God's character traits in accordance with His Law, we are acting as a light to the world, we are testifying to the world about who God is, and we are expressing our love for who God is (Deuteronomy 4:5-8)."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post...except they're not commands, and not exhaustive. They are examples to be followed; if a situation comes up which isn't explicitly covered by something, one should use the examples given to help understand how one should act in it. Even the examples given, however, aren't "do this, every single time." Sometimes one must choose between, e.g., obeying the government and proclaiming Christ. Commands are black and white; the real world is not.
I"m honestly not sure how to distinguish between you and the Judaizers; the main difference appears to be that the Judaizers wanted everyone to have to follow the law up front, and you're willing to give Gentiles time to ease into things.
My problem is that many Christians have taken things that were only said against obeying man-made laws as being against obeying God's Law, as though it were somehow a negative thing for followers of God to follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow. If we believe that God can be trusted to guide us in how to rightly live and to give laws that are for our own good, then then we should find His laws to be desirable. David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms that he loved God's Law and delighted in obeying it, which Paul also did (Romans 7:22), and if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's Law, then we should therefore share the same view.
For example, in Psalms 1:2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, which is fundamentally opposed to how most Christians view God's Law even though most Christians consider the Psalms to be Scripture. If someone were speaking to the group of Christians who have that verse memorized and were to suggest that we should delight in God's Law and meditate on it day and night, then it would be more likely for them to find Christians who would criticize them for being too legalistic than to find Christians who would agree and who want to be blessed. So something does not compute and I think the issue stems from misunderstanding Paul's problem with the Judaizers."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostAnd you completely missed the point.... Did you even watch the videos?
Indeed, I watched all four of them and it is not the first time that I have watched them either. They make some points that I agree with and others that I disagree. For example, with the idea that you only have to follow the laws of the contract if you sign it is not correct because God judged people for their sins even though they were not in a covenant relationship with Him, such as with judging the world with the Flood, judging Sodom and Gomorrah, and threatening to judge Nineveh. If they were not under God's Law and obligated to obey it, then God would not have had any ground by which to judge them for their sin, but God is sovereign, so the whole world is obligated to obey His Law regardless of whether or not we sign a contract. It was not as though Sodom and Gomorrah had a choice of whether or not they wanted to be under God's Law and neither to we, so the choice we do get to make is whether or not we are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey God's Law."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostIndeed, I watched all four of them and it is not the first time that I have watched them either. They make some points that I agree with and others that I disagree. For example, with the idea that you only have to follow the laws of the contract if you sign it is not correct because God judged people for their sins even though they were not in a covenant relationship with Him, such as with judging the world with the Flood, judging Sodom and Gomorrah, and threatening to judge Nineveh. If they were not under God's Law and obligated to obey it, then God would not have had any ground by which to judge them for their sin, but God is sovereign, so the whole world is obligated to obey His Law regardless of whether or not we sign a contract. It was not as though Sodom and Gomorrah had a choice of whether or not they wanted to be under God's Law and neither to we, so the choice we do get to make is whether or not we are going to heed the Gospel message, repent, and obey God's Law.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostYou are right about Sodom and Gomorrah not having a choice to be under law or not. In fact, there was no law for them to be under. So you have hit another dead end on your argument. How come you keep hitting these failed points in your argument?Last edited by Soyeong; 07-14-2019, 11:17 PM."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostAgain, God would not have had any grounds by which to judge them if they were not under His Law and obligated to obey it. In 2 Peter 2:6-8, they were judged for their Lawless deed.
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Originally posted by Soyeong View PostI didn't make up any laws, but rather all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160).
For example, the Jews assumed that the law (essentially the Mosaic law) existed for Abraham to obey and thus become righteous. It doesn't even seem you need a Messiah at this point in your doctrine.
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View PostIt was the Messianic Jews of the first century who caused problems for Paul in Acts 21:17ff. (This isn't finding a problem with Jews today who are simply acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah.)
The Jewish followers of Christ may have had a general requirement to adhere to the Law of Moses until the fall of the temple. The continuing adherence to the Mosaic Law would have been partly been for the goal of maintaining some common ground with Jews who still were under the Law. We see pressure on Paul by Jewish followers of Christ in Acts 21. But imagine if these Jewish Christians had stood out as non-followers of the Law. As seen in Hebrews, there was even compulsion to avoid assembling together lest they be identified as Christians and then be persecuted.
It is interesting that the passage reiterates the instructions given for Gentiles.
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Paul wouldn't have had a reputation about being against the law for Jews if Paul's message to Gentiles had included adherence to Jewish law. There had to be some element of truth for the Jerusalem Jews to have thought Paul was preaching this also to Jews.
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works. God's Law is his instructions for how to equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's Law is the correct respond to the Gospel message and in Acts 21:20, they were glorifying God that there were tens of thousands of Jews who believed and were becoming zealous for the Law. Christ was sinless, so he had a zeal for the Law that surpassed even the Pharisees. Gentiles to not need to become Jews in order to become followers of the Jewish Messiah of Judaism, but Gentiles can't follow him by refusing to follow the Law that he followed and spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey by word and by example.
When you have many Gentiles coming our of paganism who are unfamiliar with Christianity, then in order to avoid overwhelming them, it becomes important to be in the same page about which things need to be taught right away and which things can be taught over time as they mature in their faith. It would be ridiculous to think that Gentiles should disregard everything that God commanded and that Christ taught by word and by example except for those four laws. The Jerusalem didn't have greater authority than God, so they had no authority to countermand Him or to tell Gentiles not to obey any of His laws even if they had wanted to do that, nor should Gentiles follow them instead of God even if you insist that is what they were doing."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by mikewhitney View Postwithout going into the many errors you make within so few words... we don't find many rules existing apart from the Jewish covenant when Moses came. Even the misuse of Romans 5:12-14 points that out. You are falling into the fallacy of Jewish perspectives of the first century before the Messiah was manifest among them.
For example, the Jews assumed that the law (essentially the Mosaic law) existed for Abraham to obey and thus become righteous. It doesn't even seem you need a Messiah at this point in your doctrine.
For example, in Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, his statutes, and His Laws. It doesn't go into details about the exact content of these instructions, but any two sets of instructions for how to act in accordance with God's eternal righteousness are going to be the same in type and vary only in the degree of thoroughness. Any instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His eternal righteousness are eternally valid. The Law points us to the Messiah because everything in it teaches us about who he is, how to walk in the same way he walked, and how to thereby grow in a relationship with him."Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostOh!
Ok, the kind that recognizes Jesus as "I AM," or the kind that's actually an infidel and doesn't know it?"Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser
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