Are there any religious beliefs that don't require any justification? If some religious beliefs do not require a justification, then how would one know which ones require a justification and which ones don't.
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Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
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The Justification of Religious Belief
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I think that question is unconstitutionally vague.
"Any religious beliefs"? We usually talk about justification with respect to Salvation.
How bout starting with what you mean by "religious beliefs", and in what framework you're using the term "justification"?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Just in a Christian context ...
On major confessional issues, it seems critical to show why a confessional item is wrong and why an alternative view is correct. I told a JW this.
For elements of worship/liturgy, many forms are not established well from scripture but are accepted variances within Christianity. These forms of worship are religious beliefs and may find some basis in scripture, but it is nigh impossible to use scripture to denounce a liturgy.
There may be various religious beliefs that could be true but not clear in scripture -- but if you want other people to be convinced, it would be difficult. There is latitude for individual beliefs inasmuch as these don't violate more important (and strongly attested) doctrines.Last edited by mikewhitney; 05-23-2019, 02:26 PM.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think that question is unconstitutionally vague.
"Any religious beliefs"? We usually talk about justification with respect to Salvation.
How bout starting with what you mean by "religious beliefs", and in what framework you're using the term "justification"?
When I say justification, I mean proving or giving evidence that a claim is true.
To restate my question in different words, "Are there any beliefs about God or Christian doctrine that do not need to be proven?"
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostWhen I say religious beliefs, I mean beliefs about God or beliefs about Christian doctrine.
When I say justification, I mean proving or giving evidence that a claim is true.
To restate my question in different words, "Are there any beliefs about God or Christian doctrine that do not need to be proven?"
Or logical proofs like for the Trinity?
For me, Christianity is a religion based in reality and therefore evidence for it and the claims it makes is pretty essential to believing in it.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postproven in what way though? Do you mean have good evidence for, like eye witness reports (the gospels?)
Or logical proofs like for the Trinity?
For me, Christianity is a religion based in reality and therefore evidence for it and the claims it makes is pretty essential to believing in it.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostIt could be logical proofs, empirical evidence, proofs based on the Bible, proofs based on the facts of history, and so on.
The initial source would often be personally witnessed or experienced phenomena, but the primary source (in terms of range and bulk) is the written evidence based on 1/ the personal experiences of others. 2/ the assessments provided by people who have demonstrated active submission to the Holy Spirit, i.e. the fruits of the Spirit need to be evident in their personal histories.
[Not quite so necessary for the first group, as people can accurately promote the gospel without living it - exercise of the gifts attests the truth of the message, but not to the dedication of the person.]1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostAre there any religious beliefs that don't require any justification? If some religious beliefs do not require a justification, then how would one know which ones require a justification and which ones don't.
Is there anything you accept on faith?
"I think it is Dawkins' view that you should never take anything on pure faith. But on the one hand, if you take statement X, and say that statement needs proof, then someone might say ask for proof of that statement, and then ask for proof for that statement, and then ask for proof for that statement. etc. So there has to be something you believe that doesn't have to be proved by something else. Is what you believe without proof something you believe on faith? If so, what are those things you don't need proof for?"
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Originally posted by David Hayward View PostI see you read Victor Reppert's blog:
Is there anything you accept on faith?
"I think it is Dawkins' view that you should never take anything on pure faith. But on the one hand, if you take statement X, and say that statement needs proof, then someone might say ask for proof of that statement, and then ask for proof for that statement, and then ask for proof for that statement. etc. So there has to be something you believe that doesn't have to be proved by something else. Is what you believe without proof something you believe on faith? If so, what are those things you don't need proof for?"1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostTo restate my question in different words, "Are there any beliefs about God or Christian doctrine that do not need to be proven?"
"Taste and see that the LORD"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostIt seems to me that Christianity is to be experienced, the doctrines do not just sit on a shelf:
"Taste and see that the LORD
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Originally posted by ReformedApologist View PostIf you would like some good sources on this issue you might read Alvin Plantiga's works. In addition there is a book called Eternity in Their Hearts by Don Richardson.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostI've read Plantinga before. He advocates what is called Reformed Epistemology. He says that belief in God can be rational even if one does not have any evidence or arguments for it. Belief in God is a properly basic belief. Plantinga teaches that if our cognitive faculties are working properly and we are in the appropriate circumstances, we can develop a belief in God.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostThere's also the witness of the Holy Spirit, which I take to be sufficient justification to believe in God, and the Christian worldview, and all which that entails. And that can obviously not be classified as either evidence, or arguments, because it's a first person, subjective experience that you cannot use as a legitimate reason with which to convince anyone else to believe (as in, multiple people can, and do, experience the indwelling of the Spirit, but each persons experience is accessible only to themselves).
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