Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Faith and Works: The Relationship between Faith, Works, and Salvation in the NT
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For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostThe doctrine of sola fide (faith alone) is affirmed by many Protestants and evangelicals, but is not embraced by all Christian traditions. Romans Catholics, for example, believe that the teaching contradicts scripture. They will frequently cite James 2.24 as a verse that is explicitly at variance with sola fideThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostIs it not possible, however, that the relationship between the two might reach such a point of hostility or deterioration that, eventually, the son effectively disowns his father via chronic rebellion and disobedience?Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJesus frequently used the earthly "good father" analogy to show us who God is. He doesn't use an angry or impatient father as that example. [Emphasis added.]
Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostIn such a case, the son departs from the home and/or is no longer welcome in the same home so long as his disrespect and hostility continues.Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd the father (Luke 15) very patiently waits for his son to "come to himself", and rejoices at his return.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostThe doctrine of sola fide (faith alone) is affirmed by many Protestants and evangelicals, but is not embraced by all Christian traditions. Romans Catholics, for example, believe that the teaching contradicts scripture. They will frequently cite James 2.24 as a verse that is explicitly at variance with sola fide1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostI agree. I would only add that I do not believe that it was guaranteed that the son would return. The prodigal may never have repented and therefore tragically remained and died outside the house of his father. The cause for rejoicing was that he did (re)turn, and his father was waiting to embrace him as his son.
Look at verse 20 - And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
There is ZERO indication that the father knows that the son is repentant - "while he was still a long way off", the father was already in motion to receive him, regardless.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAre you proposing that, in any of those circumstances, the person was "in the household as a family member", then the relationship became so bad that they were no longer welcome back in the home?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostEven if he died "outside the house of his father", it doesn't change the fact that he's still his father's son, and the father was always ready to receive him. Imagine somebody bringing the dead body of the son to the father - do you really think the father would refuse him a burial?
Look at verse 20 - And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
There is ZERO indication that the father knows that the son is repentant - "while he was still a long way off", the father was already in motion to receive him, regardless.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAre you proposing that, in any of those circumstances, the person was "in the household as a family member", then the relationship became so bad that they were no longer welcome back in the home?
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat is certain. Did Paul not order certain parties be expelled from the assembly?
Later.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNo analogy is so robust that it cannot be very quickly be stretched beyond its elastic limit. Nonetheless, the father ran to meet the son - what would the father's reaction have been had the son commanded him when they met: "You will reinstate me to full position of sonship as is my right!" Joyful as the father might have been to that point, would you expect a different reaction to that which followed the actual expression of submission?
G'nite!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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3:30 pm here is 1:00 am there. I'll keep that for future reference.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostThe doctrine of sola fide (faith alone) is affirmed by many Protestants and evangelicals, but is not embraced by all Christian traditions. Romans Catholics, for example, believe that the teaching contradicts scripture. They will frequently cite James 2.24 as a verse that is explicitly at variance with sola fideLast edited by tabibito; 05-26-2019, 02:34 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd the father (Luke 15) very patiently waits for his son to "come to himself", and rejoices at his return.Originally posted by The Remonstrant View PostI agree. I would only add that I do not believe that it was guaranteed that the son would return. The prodigal may never have repented and therefore tragically remained and died outside the house of his father. The cause for rejoicing was that he did (re)turn, and his father was waiting to embrace him as his son.Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostEven if he died "outside the house of his father", it doesn't change the fact that he's still his father's son, and the father was always ready to receive him. Imagine somebody bringing the dead body of the son to the father - do you really think the father would refuse him a burial?
Look at verse 20 - And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
There is ZERO indication that the father knows that the son is repentant - "while he was still a long way off", the father was already in motion to receive him, regardless.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYes - that is the thrust of Paul's argument. Works of law are of no value without faith. Even proponents of sola fide will admit that some unrepented sins will exclude a person from salvation, but never the ones they themselves commit (of course) because they're still in the flesh and therefore can't overcome sin. Works of love, righteousness etc. ... Paul does not consider optional. [Emphasis added.]For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostNo, they don't.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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