Faith and Works: The Relationship between Faith, Works, and Salvation in the NT

[The Remonstrant]

I still don't think you get my point: If you are worried about going to hell, then you CANNOT live a life that pleases God. The passage teaches that assurance of salvation is core to the gospel. You have to know that your treasure is in heaven before your heart can be there.

I would agree that, ideally, a believer, one who is united to Christ, would always

[Obsidian]

You cannot believe in Christ for salvation while doubting his disposition to save. That is a contradiction. It does not make any sense. And all the examples you cite involve doubt in his disposition to save.

[The Remonstrant]

I would agree that, ideally, a believer, one who is united to Christ, would always [Emphasis added.]

You cannot believe in Christ for salvation while doubting his disposition to save. That is a contradiction. It does not make any sense. And all the examples you cite involve doubt in his disposition to save.

On the contrary, all

[Obsidian]

"Present salvational uncertainty" is just a fancy term for unbelief. Whether you want to call faith "subjective" or objective makes no difference. If you doubt whether he has saved you, then you are not trusting in him for salvation. It is that simple.

[The Remonstrant]

"Present salvational uncertainty" is just a fancy term for unbelief. Whether you want to call faith "subjective" or objective makes no difference. If you doubt whether he has saved you, then you are not trusting in him for salvation. It is that simple.

[Obsidian]

Strictly speaking, there is nothing in that passage about laying hold on anything, or confessing "allegiance."

You can contend for whatever you want. But to lack assurance is to lack faith. To believe the record requires assurance. And to lack assurance is to call God a liar.

1 John 5:10-11

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

To believe in Jesus as the Christ is to believe that he saves everyone who believes.

John 11:25-27

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Notwithstanding, I entertain the possibility also that persons may possess an assurance that they are justified before God that is presumptuous in nature, based more on ignorance and/or self-deception than the testimony of scripture (perhaps superintended, primarily or in part, by demonic agency).

To have assurance based on anything other than Jesus is also to lack faith. And by promoting this works-salvation stuff, you are promoting such unbelief.

[tabibito]

by promoting this works-salvation stuff, you are promoting such unbelief.

in false doctrines, yes.

[The Remonstrant]

"Present salvational uncertainty" is just a fancy term for unbelief. Whether you want to call faith "subjective" or objective makes no difference. If you doubt whether he has saved you, then you are not trusting in him for salvation. It is that simple.

Salvation by Allegiance Alone (2017):

pistis. The verb that Paul selects to describe what is necessary, homologeō,Jesus is Lord is at the bedrock, because this designates mental agreement with the gospel and the desire to live a life of personal fidelity to Jesus as the sovereign ruler of heaven and earth. (Matthew W. Bates, Salvation by Allegiance Alone: Rethinking Faith, Works, and the Gospel of Jesus the King [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2017], p. 98, emphases in original)

[1] You can contend for whatever you want. [2] But to lack assurance is to lack faith. To believe the record requires assurance. And to lack assurance is to call God a liar.

1 John 5:10-11 [KJV]

¹⁰ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. ¹¹ And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

(1) Yes, and I have; but thank you for granting me the permission to do so.

(2) Your understanding of the nature of faith is such that, by definition,dynamic

Pardon me: Are you able to provide me a single quotation in which I have explicitly stated that Christ does not save everyone who believes? If not, it seems rather odd of you to state this in the context of our discussion here (on the Theology 201 forum [as opposed to the Unorthodox Theology 201 forum], of all places).

Notwithstanding, I entertain the possibility also that persons may possess an assurance that they are justified before God that is presumptuous in nature, based more on ignorance and/or self-deception than the testimony of scripture (perhaps superintended, primarily or in part, by demonic agency).

To have assurance based on anything other than Jesus is also to lack faith. And by promoting this works-salvation stuff, you are promoting such unbelief.

By reading your response, it appears as though this exchange never occurred.

[Obsidian]

By reading your response, it appears as though this exchange never occurred.

You stated that someone could have a false assurance. I stated that someone could have a false assurance only if that assurance was based on something other than Jesus.

No, I don't think so. Now it sounds like you are teaching baptismal regeneration. But see this passage:

Acts 10:43-44

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

In fact, the Romans 10 passage that your teacher cites doesn't even call the verbal statement "necessary." Do you understand the difference between "if," versus "if any only if"?

Pardon me: Are you able to provide me a single quotation in which I have explicitly stated that Christ does not save everyone who believes?

Above, you just got done saying that someone must not only believe, but also "desire" to live rightly, and then publicly "swear" to follow Jesus. And it seems to be implied by you that if the oath turns out to be hollow through a lack of sinless living, then the person will go to hell. So yes, you have apparently stated that not everyone who believes is saved.

[tabibito]

So yes, you have apparently stated that not everyone who believes is saved.

To say otherwise would be to deny that the validity of the Biblical record.

[Hornet]

I agree that people must swear allegiance to Christ. They must be devoted followers of Him. However, that is a different issue than the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God. The basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God is Christ's payment for our sin, Christ's resurrection, and Christ's righteousness imputed to the believer's account. Our commitment or our performance or our obedience cannot be the basis upon which we are justified before God. Philippians 3:9 teaches that we do not have our own righteousness. Romans chapters 3 & 4 and Galatians 2 teaches that we are not justified by the works of the law.

When God justifies a person, He will also change that person so that he will obey God, but his obedience is not the basis upon which God justifies people. Giving allegiance to Christ and living like it are consequences of being born again; they are not what provides the reason why God would declare people righteous in the first place.

[KingsGambit]

I agree that people must swear allegiance to Christ. They must be devoted followers of Him. However, that is a different issue than the basis upon which a person is declared righteous before God.

Revelation 21:8 says that the cowardly and the unbelieving will not receive eternal life; they are not one and the same. Given that the book was written as encouragement to persecuted Christians, it is reasonable to assume that "cowardly" is in the sense of those who falter under persecution, and by definition, maintain allegiance to something other than Christ; in this case, the Roman state.

[Obsidian]

Revelation 21:8 says that the cowardly and the unbelieving will not receive eternal life; they are not one and the same. Given that the book was written as encouragement to persecuted Christians, it is reasonable to assume that "cowardly" is in the sense of those who falter under persecution, and by definition, maintain allegiance to something other than Christ; in this case, the Roman state.

That sure is reading a lot into a vague verse. As it just so happens, reading things into vague verses is a common pastime of works-salvationists. How about find something a little more clear to teach your heresy?

[The Remonstrant]

Revelation 21:8 says that the cowardly and the unbelieving will not receive eternal life; they are not one and the same. Given that the book was written as encouragement to persecuted Christians, it is reasonable to assume that "cowardly" is in the sense of those who falter under persecution, and by definition, maintain allegiance to something other than Christ; in this case, the Roman state.

deilos) are those who abandon the King of kings and Lord of lords for the alleviation of temporal harm and/or the obtainment of some form of enjoyment of temporal security.

[The Remonstrant]

You can contend for whatever you want. But to lack assurance is to lack faith. To believe the record requires assurance. And to lack assurance is to call God a liar.

Pardon me: Are you able to provide me a single quotation in which I have explicitly stated that Christ does not save everyone who believes? If not, it seems rather odd of you to state this in the context of our discussion here (on the Theology 201 forum [as opposed to the Unorthodox Theology 201 forum], of all places).

[1] Above, you just got done saying that someone must not only believe, but also "desire" to live rightly, and then publicly "swear" to follow Jesus. [2] And it seems to be implied by you that if the oath turns out to be hollow through a lack of sinless living, then the person will go to hell. [3] So yes, you have apparently stated that not everyone who believes is saved.

Salvation by Allegiance Alone