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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Limited atonement?
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For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by ReformedApologistI hold the position of common grace. Christ died for all without distinction, but the benefits of it are only for those who trust in him.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
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OSAS depends on Sola Fide being true.
The claim that Sola Fide was promoted by Paul is demolished by Romans 10:10.
Rom 10:10 The outcome of faith is righteousness - The outcome of CONFESSING with the mouth is salvation.
OSAS is therefore a house of cards.
And that is even before the definition of "faith" as "belief" begins to be examined.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostOSAS depends on Sola Fide being true.
The claim that Sola Fide was promoted by Paul is demolished by Romans 10:10.
Rom 10:10 The outcome of faith is righteousness - The outcome of CONFESSING with the mouth is salvation.
OSAS is therefore a house of cards.
And that is even before the definition of "faith" as "belief" begins to be examined.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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The one that invariably is promoted: "Faith alone saves. Christ will lose none that the Father has given him. A person can do nothing to secure his salvation."1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe one that invariably is promoted: "Faith alone saves. Christ will lose none that the Father has given him. A person can do nothing to secure his salvation."
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postand yet you just said that confessing that faith saves you (rom 10:10). So how does that defeat OSAS?
Rom 10:10 for the outcome of faith is righteousness, and the outcome of confession WITH YOUR MOUTH will be salvation
Which part of that is "only believe" fulfilling?
if there is not confession with your mouth ... ?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostRom 10:9 If you confess the Lord Jesus AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you shall be saved
Rom 10:10 for the outcome of faith is righteousness, and the outcome of confession WITH YOUR MOUTH will be salvation
Which part of that is "only believe" fulfilling?
if there is not confession with your mouth ... ?
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The verse(s) defeat Sola Fide - Without Sola Fide, OSAS can't stand (near as I can tell.) Without verse 10 and by dint of some nasty sophistry, verse 9 could be tortured into compliance with Sola Fide.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe verse(s) defeat Sola Fide - Without Sola Fide, OSAS can't stand (near as I can tell.) Without verse 10 and by dint of some nasty sophistry, verse 9 could be tortured into compliance with Sola Fide."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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The only way you can see Romans 10:9-10 as defeating sola fide is if you view faith as merely intellectual assent, or something that does not produce any effects in the life of the believer what so ever. If "confessing with the mouth" is instead seen as the product of a living and effectual faith, then the passage doesn't really pose that much of a problem for the doctrine of sole fide.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe verse(s) defeat Sola Fide - Without Sola Fide, OSAS can't stand (near as I can tell.) Without verse 10 and by dint of some nasty sophistry, verse 9 could be tortured into compliance with Sola Fide.
How does the verse defeat Sola fide (faith alone?) All it is saying is that you have to believe and confess your belief. Confessing isn't a "work" it is just an admission of your faith to others. And there is nothing about "unconfessing" your faith. So how does it defeat OSAS?
And the same author who wrote that is the one who wrote the verse that says "by faith alone and not by works" - - Do you think Paul just goes around contradicting himself?
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