I feel like you are just trying to pick a fight, trying to find something wrong with what anyone says. Either that or you are just way too legalistic.
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Turning from sin and conversion
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIf you believe on Christ, he will do his best to change you whether you intend it or not. But salvation is based on neither. Salvation isn't based on intention, or on obedience. It is based on faith.
Flatly - the only thing that saves a person in the final analysis is God's loyalty, but you'll find plenty of passages to tell you that God is not necessarily loyal to people who are disloyal. You will also find at least one passage that says God will be loyal even when we are disloyal.
Jesus spoke plainly, directly, and for the most part confined himself to a one issue at a time (when he was teaching his disciples). For example -Mark 3: 33B Τίς ἐστιν ἡ μήτηρ μου καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοί [μου]; 34 καὶ περιβλεψάμενος τοὺς περὶ αὐτὸν κύκλῳ καθημένους λέγει, Ἴδε ἡ μήτηρ μου καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοί μου. 35ὃς [γὰρ] ἂν ποιήσῃ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, οὗτος ἀδελφός μου καὶ ἀδελφὴ καὶ μήτηρ ἐστίν.Which leaves the question to be answered: Who among the saved are NOT brothers of Christ?
When the rich young man asked "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" - Jesus did not say "only believe" - what did he say? And what does this indicate regarding those who have no inheritance in heaven? Do they perhaps INHERIT an eternal life somewhere else?
Does "not all who call me Lord, Lord will enter in" have something to say about what should be done? and here the contrast between calling (or saying) and confessing becomes readily apparent.
Does Paul contradict Jesus? No - he addresses complex issues without breaking them down piece by piece. He addresses people who are already familiar with the gospel. But his words, addressing complex issues, are easy to mangle so as to make them fit with a preferred viewpoint. That doesn't come as news - Peter said as much:2 Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
It is not possible to properly understand Paul without the gospel as a foundation. But people who either disregard or don't know the gospel will insist on trying to teach from Paul's writings.Last edited by tabibito; 04-17-2019, 10:24 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostNo, turning from sin is not an essential part of conversion. But it is strongly encouraged.
Hebrews 12:7-8 [KJV]
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostI have known for a while that Tabibito is not a real Christian. He overtly preaches works[-]salvation. You [Sparko] are a real Christian (as far as I can tell), but you are confused and somewhat watered-down. In contrast, Cow Poke basically agrees with me, but he just doesn't like being mean to anybody, and he dislikes me.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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set free.jpg... ...from sin.jpgLast edited by tabibito; 04-19-2019, 03:02 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut preaching the word brings the power of God to grant repentance and faith, is my view. And repentance is a life-long virtue, said Spurgeon, as is faith ("I have kept the faith", said Paul). So there is room enough for our willing response.
Blessings,
LeeVeritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIf God "grants" repentance and faith, it's not a "willing response". I agree that preaching the Word is an effectual call to repentance and faith; where I disagree is when the word preached is argued to be irresistible to some and utterly powerless for the rest.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIf God "grants" repentance and faith, it's not a "willing response". I agree that preaching the Word is an effectual call to repentance and faith; where I disagree is when the word preached is argued to be irresistible to some and utterly powerless for the rest.
Originally posted by Cow PokeKinda reminds me of a TULIP.
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by lee_merrill; 04-19-2019, 09:28 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostKinda reminds me of a TULIP.Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostOnly I pronounce it TU-IP! No limited atonement...Originally posted by tabibito View PostThere is a group that penetrates just about all denominations to which he seems to be an adherent.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSalvation is by no means based on faith alone. Of course, you may be able to find a passage that says "saved by faith" without some other factor being stated to play a part. Good luck with the search. You could probably find one that says "justified by faith" without other factors being mentioned.
Flatly - the only thing that saves a person in the final analysis is God's loyalty, but you'll find plenty of passages to tell you that God is not necessarily loyal to people who are disloyal. You will also find at least one passage that says God will be loyal even when we are disloyal.
Jesus spoke plainly, directly, and for the most part confined himself to a one issue at a time (when he was teaching his disciples). For example -Mark 3: 33B Τίς ἐστιν ἡ μήτηρ μου καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοί [μου]; 34 καὶ περιβλεψάμενος τοὺς περὶ αὐτὸν κύκλῳ καθημένους λέγει, Ἴδε ἡ μήτηρ μου καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοί μου. 35ὃς [γὰρ] ἂν ποιήσῃ τὸ θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, οὗτος ἀδελφός μου καὶ ἀδελφὴ καὶ μήτηρ ἐστίν.Which leaves the question to be answered: Who among the saved are NOT brothers of Christ?
When the rich young man asked "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" - Jesus did not say "only believe" - what did he say? And what does this indicate regarding those who have no inheritance in heaven? Do they perhaps INHERIT an eternal life somewhere else?
Does "not all who call me Lord, Lord will enter in" have something to say about what should be done? and here the contrast between calling (or saying) and confessing becomes readily apparent.
Does Paul contradict Jesus? No - he addresses complex issues without breaking them down piece by piece. He addresses people who are already familiar with the gospel. But his words, addressing complex issues, are easy to mangle so as to make them fit with a preferred viewpoint. That doesn't come as news - Peter said as much:2 Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
It is not possible to properly understand Paul without the gospel as a foundation. But people who either disregard or don't know the gospel will insist on trying to teach from Paul's writings.
According to Luke 18, the tax collector went home justified even though he did not do anything good. He realized that he was a sinner and he begged God for mercy.
Romans 4:1-4 teaches that Abraham was not justified by works. He was justified by faith. This passage also teaches that God justifies the ungodly. Even though a person is ungodly, God can still declare him righteous.
Galatians 2:16 teaches that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law.
James 2:24 says, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." This verse is not contradicting what I've been saying. James is using the word "justified" in the sense "shown to be righteous." In other words, James is saying that our good works give evidence of whether we are saved. Our good works do not cause us to be saved. Salvation is not received by our good works. We are not saved on the basis of our good works. Our good works are the evidence that we have been saved.
A right standing before God is received as soon as we trust Christ for our salvation. When God saves us, He changes us so that we will do good works, but those good works are not the basis upon which we are declared righteous. Good works are the sign that we have been born again.Last edited by Hornet; 04-22-2019, 07:44 PM.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostWhen Jesus was talking to the rich young ruler, His point was that one had to keep all of the commandments perfectly in order to achieve salvation by human merit. If you want to achieve salvation through human merit, then you would have to keep all of God's commandments perfectly. The problem is that we cannot keep all of God's commandments perfectly so receiving salvation cannot be based on our own efforts to please God or to obey God. The rich young ruler did not obey all of God's commandments. He could not keep the commandment that taught that one must love God with all of one's heart, mind, soul, strength, and so on.Last edited by The Remonstrant; 04-23-2019, 07:17 PM.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Postcompeting allegiances1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Postcompeting allegiances
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Trying to find without success so far, a scriptural reference showing "declared righteous"1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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