Originally posted by tabibito
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Turning from sin and conversion
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostIf a confession (to anything) is false, it is a lie. Police have been known to deal with false confessions from time to time.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostActually, it's only a false confession if it's not true. Somebody can confess to a crime, and later denounce their confession as false. The truthfulness of the confession, however, does not rest on what they said, but on what actually is true.itthe confession is a lie.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI see your point ... Rewording: If a confession (to anything) is false,itthe confession is a lie.
Going back to your example that police deal with this --- there have been cases where somebody, by all appearances, believes they have committed a crime, and confess, but it can be proven in court that somebody else committed that particular crime.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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If an atheist said, "Jesus is my personal Savior" he would be giving a false confession. While Jesus is Savior, he isn't the Atheist's savior (at least until the atheist actually believes in Jesus and asks to be saved)
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd then it gets sticky. If somebody truly believes something - even though that something is not true - it may not be considered a "false confession" for them to declare it.
Going back to your example that police deal with this --- there have been cases where somebody, by all appearances, believes they have committed a crime, and confess, but it can be proven in court that somebody else committed that particular crime.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
We could, for example, look at somebody who "confesses Christ is Lord", yet lives a life devoid of 'fruit', or appears to be serving other interests, and come away assuming their "confession" is false.
Christ IS Lord, but perhaps not THEIR Lord in the practical sense.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Rom 10:10 - Confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord leads to salvation - It is not possible to confess to something that isn't fact (though a false confession is possible), but the "false" has to be specified.
Rom 10:10 - Believing in your heart leads to ... justification. No more than that. And believing in Christ means trusting him and the truth of his words. Did he say that works were necessary? That he did. Can a person believe in Christ and call him a liar? Not a chance.Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIt's actually an interesting topic - and, particularly the way you phrased it.
We could, for example, look at somebody who "confesses Christ is Lord", yet lives a life devoid of 'fruit', or appears to be serving other interests, and come away assuming their "confession" is false.
Christ IS Lord, but perhaps not THEIR Lord in the practical sense.
And of course, if Christ DID say that works are necessary - saying that works are not necessary is a claim that Christ lied (based on the presupposition that the person believes that Christ could not have made a mistake.) It is not possible to confess to something without that confession being true.Last edited by tabibito; 04-17-2019, 11:04 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat was my point. If Christ is not the person's lord, the confession is false - even if the person doing the not confessing believes that Christ is his Lord.
And of course, if Christ DID say that works are necessary - saying that works are not necessary is a claim that Christ lied (based on the presupposition that Christ could not have made a mistake.) It is not possible to confess to something without that confession being true.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Is OK - I'm putting this exercise to use for assignment writing. Lecturers have a habit of doing what you've been doing.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostIs OK - I'm putting this exercise to use for assignment writing. Lecturers have a habit of doing what you've been doing.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow PokeWe could, for example, look at somebody who "confesses Christ is Lord", yet lives a life devoid of 'fruit', or appears to be serving other interests, and come away assuming their "confession" is false.
Christ IS Lord, but perhaps not THEIR Lord in the practical sense.
Originally posted by tabibitoOh dear, so much eisegesis in that claim.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostActually, there are two meanings for repent.
1/ regret
2/ turn away/from/aside (that is: change course)
In Koine Greek they are two different, though closely related, words. The first is what Judas did after he had betrayed Christ. The second is used in the calls for people to repent.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostGo on believing tautologies. You simply don't have the ability to reason.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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You quoted my claim that said Jesus will save everyone who calls, then you literally quoted the passage and ended on a verse that says Jesus will save everyone who calls, and then said that my claim is certainly no where in the text. You are a heretic, with a warped mind.
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