Originally posted by Obsidian
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Turning from sin and conversion
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostBelieving on Jesus Christ for eternal life.
Merely believing God or Jesus exists doesn't save anyone. You have to turn your life over to him and ask him to save you. That requires admitting you need him because you are a sinner, and obeying him because he is your LORD and master. Which means you need to repent because he told us to.
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Believing on means to expect the object on which you are believing to save you.
Believing "in" could mean the same thing, or it could just mean to believe in the existence of something: "I believe in Bigfoot."
Originally posted by SparkoYou have to turn your life over to him and ask him to save you. That requires admitting you need him because you are a sinner, and obeying him because he is your LORD and master. Which means you need to repent because he told us to.
Mark 12:28-30
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostBelieving on means to expect the object on which you are believing to save you.
Believing "in" could mean the same thing, or it could just mean to believe in the existence of something: "I believe in Bigfoot."
I'm not sure what you mean by "turn your life over to him," but when you mention obeying him, you are basically mixing in the works of the law with your definition of faith. Obeying God is clearly part of the law.
Mark 12:28-30
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
So I guess you don't
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Originally posted by SparkoYou can't just say you believe in God and go on living a life of sin and rebellion.
Paying lip service to God doesn't save you.
Romans 10:8-9
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
So I guess you don't obey God so he doesn't think you are accidentally "following the law?"
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Rom 10:10 - Confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord leads to salvation - It is not possible to confess to something that isn't fact (though a false confession is possible), but the "false" has to be specified.
Rom 10:10 - Believing in your heart leads to ... justification. No more than that. And believing in Christ means trusting him and the truth of his words. Did he say that works were necessary? That he did. Can a person believe in Christ and call him a liar? Not a chance.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIn what sense would confessing the Lord Jesus be "false"?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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What I send is under my control - what happens to it after it is received is not.
A person who gives a false confession that Christ is Lord would be falsely declaring that Christ is his Lord.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Clearly it is teaching that any sincere acceptance ("confess[ion]") of Jesus will make him your Lord. Otherwise, it would be teaching this tautology: If you confess that Jesus has saved you, and if you are telling the truth, then Jesus has saved you. That is a completely stupid, meaningless interpretation.
The next several verses afterward (not to mention the verses preceding) drill home over and over again that Jesus will save whomever calls. The only requirement is to call on him, another way of saying that we must believe. There is no requirement of law-keeping to make Jesus your Lord. What other country on earth do you become a member of by keeping laws? That's not how immigration even works.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostClearly it is teaching that any sincere acceptance ("confess[ion]") of Jesus will make him your Lord.
Otherwise, it would be teaching this tautology: If you confess that Jesus has saved you, and if you are telling the truth, then Jesus has saved you. That is a completely stupid, meaningless interpretation.
The next several verses afterward (not to mention the verses preceding) drill home over and over again that Jesus will save whomever calls.
The only requirement is to call on him, another way of saying that we must believe. There is no requirement of law-keeping to make Jesus your Lord. What other country on earth do you become a member of by keeping laws? That's not how immigration even works.
[edit] Or rather, so much pushing an analogy past its elastic limit.Last edited by tabibito; 04-17-2019, 03:18 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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