Originally posted by Hornet
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostRight now, I have assignments due. I'll get back to this later.
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Can God's plan to allow people to do evil be described as ordaining something?
If God ordained that people would crucify Jesus, how did God go about carrying out what He ordained? Did He allow them to act according to their desires and not allow anything to stop them?Last edited by Hornet; 04-09-2019, 09:56 PM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostObviously.It is written that all have sinned; it is not written that all do only sin.
Since when did doing what is right make a person righteous?
The unrighteous can do what is right from time to time. The gentiles don't hate everyone, for example. Altruism is not exclusive to Christians.
but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel." (Pr. 12:10)
ORDORD had said." (Ex. 7:22)
After the frogs: "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Ex. 8:15)
So only after the third miracle do we see any clear indication that Pharaoh hardened his heart. And what is it that the Lord said?
"You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
But
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I'm not convinced that this example is accurate. Outcomes from the Crucifixion might be ordained without the crucifixion itself being ordained: a matter of all things being made to work together for the good; which is to say, I am not convinced that God would ordain evil.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostThere is an argument I heard that is against the view that God ordains everything that comes to pass. How would you respond to it?
If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances.
If God ordains that Christians will not use their God-given strength to overcome sin in certain circumstances, then sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances.
If sin is unavoidable in certain circumstances, then this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
Conclusion: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostIt certainly illustrates the freedom of God in choosing.
"Then Peter began to speak: 'I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.' "
So then unbelievers can do what is right without God's help?
Why do we need a Savior, then?
Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhy do good works not save a person?
Someone commits murder. Thereafter, that person spent the past 20 years doing only good works. Then he is identified as the perpetrator of that murder 20 years earlier, he is tried and convicted. Do his good works save him? Not so, but a pardon (grace) will. BUT - just how much effect will that pardon have if the person then goes on to commit murder again - can he say "but I have been pardoned"?"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21)
The unrighteous can do what is right from time to time. The gentiles don't hate everyone, for example. Altruism is not exclusive to Christians.
But being hardened is from the Lord:
Originally posted by tabibito View PostBeing hardened can be from the Lord - usually when people have rejected opportunity often enough to become an annoyance. You present arguments, that show the Lord does harden a person, which also show that they weren't hardened from the outset. Comment by Chrawnus earlier in this thread is relevant.Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostTo go from "God sends disasters to cities/God is the cause of disasters" to "God has ordained all things to be as they are, down to the smallest minutiae" seem to me to be quite a substantial leap.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostSo then, God chose Israel because of 1/ love for them, and 2/ an oath he made to their ancestor. The particular people addressed were chosen on this basis, but there is nothing in the passage that explains why he would choose anyone else.
Nor does it explain why God set his love on them. In short - the passage does not address the issue of whom God chooses. By contrast, Acts 10:35 does address that issue.
So then unbelievers can do what is right without God's help? Why do we need a Savior, then?
"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21)
Dt 29:4 doesn't address the issue of why God had not given those attributes: Ezekiel 3: 6-7 does.
and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Isa.63:17)
Blessings,
Lee
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[QUOTE=tabibito;624869]Rather than try to explain the grammar, I'll provide an example ... "Eat and you will be filled, you and your household." would also present the command in the singular. If someone told you that this meant, "If the one person directly addressed eats, the entire household will be filled," you would be justified in doubting that someone's sanity.
Right, so "eat" should be taken as a plural imperative, you are using the ambiguity of English to make your point.
Every relevant record shows that he was chosen for discipleship and apostleship.That non-believers can choose, and even do, what is right is demonstrated.
If grace is extended to the unbeliever, it is not before the decision, but in making it possible to act on the decision.
A person enslaved is not deprived of his own desires - just the ability to act on them. Your own response, the first one quoted in this post, says as much.
"At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures." (Titus 3:3)
So unbelievers are enslaved by their desires, and by the devil, to do his will (2 Tim. 2:26).
Blessings,
Lee
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostYes, the Lord chooses those he loves:
So then, God chose Israel because of 1/ love for them, and 2/ an oath he made to their ancestor. The particular people addressed were chosen on this basis, but there is nothing in the passage that explains why he would choose anyone else. Nor does it explain why God set his love on them. In short - the passage does not address the issue of whom God chooses. By contrast, Acts 10:35 does address that issue.
Yes, and "be saved" is passive, and the Lord is the one who makes us willing: "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt 29:4)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostI think there must be some miscommunication here, the jailer was told to believe because he had not yet believed.
Well, the command is singular.
It would appear so! "Believe and you and your household will be saved".
(does believing on Christ involve believing what he said) Yes, it does.
Every relevant record shows that he was chosen for discipleship and apostleship.
Not "will become a devil"...
Yes, but this is written to a believer, I believe that God's children can really choose, but that those apart from Christ cannot:
A person enslaved is not deprived of his own desires - just the ability to act on them. Your own response, the first one quoted in this post, says as much.Last edited by tabibito; 04-06-2019, 08:10 PM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhy would the jailer be told do something he had already done? [πιστευσον - pisteuson] - "do <believe> til completion!"
Why would Jesus be preached to him if he already believed?
Is the command (believe on Christ) given with regard to the jailer as well as his household?
Would the jailer's household be saved because the jailer believed? (Acts 2:38-39 provides the answer)
Does believing on Christ involve doing what he says?
The disciples were free to disallow being chosen, and ultimately, Judas disallowed it. More than anything else in the Bible, the record regarding Judas shows that God does not (ordinarily) choose to impose his will on a person.Demonstration of how the process works can be found in Paul's letter to Philemon (1:8b-9a) "I have complete freedom to order you to do what is proper, 9 I prefer to make my appeal on the basis of love."Scant cause for hope there - Jesus declared that he had been lost.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat is a superficial response. The Bible declares whom God chooses without any doubt.Be (or get) baptised is passive - it can't be done to an unwilling person. Dunking an unwilling person will only get the person wet.
Blessings,
Lee
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostYes, and yes, and yes. And the jailer's household was saved when the jailer believed! Apparently their salvation was not ultimately up to them: "believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, and your household." (Acts 16:31)
Why would Jesus be preached to him if he already believed?
Is the command (believe on Christ) given with regard to the jailer as well as his household? Would the jailer's household be saved because the jailer believed? (Acts 2:38-39 provides the answer)
Does believing on Christ involve doing what he says?
But the aspect of service is in the phrase "and appointed you". "I chose you [to be my disciples] and appointed you [for service]".
Otherwise, we have "you did not choose me [for service]"! But this is not the sense of "you did not choose me".
Yet I am willing to hope that all will be saved, which would include Judas!
Last edited by tabibito; 04-05-2019, 06:30 PM.
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