Originally posted by Hornet
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things
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"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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To my eye, Molinism seems way too speculative without any real biblical evidence actually suggesting it is an accurate model."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostTo ordain means to bring to pass or make a plan that something will take place.
Amos 3:6 teaches that God brings about natural disasters, but it does not say that God brings about all things.
Ephesians 1:3-12 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory."
There is a phrase in the above passage that says, "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..." God is said to work all "things after the counsel of His will." This sounds like that God makes sure that everything happens according to His plan. Is it correct to say that God's plan includes both directly causing certain things and permitting certain things? If so, then God makes sure that everything happens according to His plan to directly cause something or to permit something."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostTo my eye, Molinism seems way too speculative without any real biblical evidence actually suggesting it is an accurate model.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostAmos 3:6 is teaching that God causes disaster. What about sin? Does God cause people to sin or does He just allow people to sin?Last edited by lee_merrill; 03-22-2019, 03:48 PM."What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostTo my eye, Molinism seems way too speculative without any real biblical evidence actually suggesting it is an accurate model.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI'm not sure about Molinism as a whole, but at least the part about middle knowledge makes perfect sense to me. I don't even know how anyone could seriously deny that God has middle knowledge."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Words translated as "ordain" by the translators of the KJV
(not in original text) - (interpolation) - Rom 7:10 - translated as (n/a)
cheirotoneo - appoint by vote - Acts 14:23 - choose, ordain
diatasso - command - 1 Cor 7:17; 9:14. Gal 3:19 - appoint, command, give, (set in) order, ordain
horizo - delimit, appoint, specify - Acts 10:42; 17:31 - declare, determine, limit, ordain
kataskeuazo - construct, build, prepare (for purpose of) - Heb 9:6 - build, make, ordain, prepare
kathistemi - designate, assign - Titus 1:5. Heb 5:1; 8:3 - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set
proetoimazo - prepare < > in advance - Eph 2:10 - ordain before, prepare afore
proginosko - know previously* - 1 Pet 1:20 - fore-ordain, foreknow, know (before)
prographo - write/announce in advance - Jude 1:4 - before ordain, evidently set forth, write (afore, aforetime)
proorizo - predetermine, decide beforehand - 1 Cor 2:7 - determine before, ordain, predestinate
tasso - assign - Acts 13:48. Rom 13:1 ... addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set
tithemi - put < > in place - John 15:16. 1 Tim 2:7 - advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down
poieo - make/do - Mark 3:14 - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do(-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield
krino - render a judicial decision - Acts 16:4 - avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think
ginomai - become - Acts 1:22 - arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought
* People knowing Paul (proginosko (present participle plural) = proeginoskontes) from the time before he came to Christ.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostYes, IIRC there are several passages that explicitly state the hypothetical result of counterfactuals.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI mean, even if there weren't a single biblical passage about "what would happen if things were a different way" the mere thought that God wouldn't know how how things would turn out of things were different than what they are is completely ludicrous to me."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostYep. I suspect the main reason for Molinism's current resurgence can be squarely tied to its embrace by William Lane Craig. As an actual theory, I suppose it's possible, but there's no real way to prove or disprove it.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostMaybe a search of the literature for reference to whether God knows all that is,
all that will be, and all that can be will provide a clue?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View Postyep, it says that
Nope, not finding those...
The question then continues further - in part answered by the preponderance of prophecies that are (explicitly or implicitly) conditional, with the scant few that are not conditional being fairly short range.
Far future tends to be conditional, near future sometimes can be absolute.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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