Originally posted by Christianbookworm
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Theology 201 Guidelines
This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Answering An Argument Against God's Ordination of All Things
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostWhat is your working definition of "ordain"? God allows things to happen but does not endorse them.
The other day, a friend of mine posted a quotation from a Calvinist theologian who argued that God invented and introduced sin as part of his plan because God controls everything that happens. This would be the logical conclusion of such a determinist viewpoint, but is quite obviously wrong.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostLast time, I think the "they" was Sye ten Bruggencate IIRC, who doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostMy understanding of ordain means to make a plan that something would happen.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostI know some people who have used that argument.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostIf God ordains everything that comes to pass, hen this would be inconsistent with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which teaches that God will provide a way to escape the temptation to sin.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostAre there actually any twebbers that think God actually is fully equivalent to an author? Because fictional characters have no choice but be whatever the writer has them to be.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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One of the strongest verses one could argue for the ordination of all things is Amos 3:6, which in my limited experience Arminians have not done a good job explaining. ("When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?") NIV"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostOne of the strongest verses one could argue for the ordination of all things is Amos 3:6, which in my limited experience Arminians have not done a good job explaining. ("When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?") NIV
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostOne of the strongest verses one could argue for the ordination of all things is Amos 3:6, which in my limited experience Arminians have not done a good job explaining. ("When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?") NIV
Or I could simply be misreading the verse, and/or misunderstanding in what way it's supposed to be used as support for the teaching.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostOne of the strongest verses one could argue for the ordination of all things is Amos 3:6, which in my limited experience Arminians have not done a good job explaining. ("When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?") NIVOriginally posted by Chrawnus View PostEither I'm misunderstanding what the doctrine of "the ordination of all things" entails, or else I don't see how that verse is supposed to be strong support for the doctrine. To go from "God sends disasters to cities/God is the cause of disasters" to "God has ordained all things to be as they are, down to the smallest minutiae" seem to me to be quite a substantial leap.
Or I could simply be misreading the verse, and/or misunderstanding in what way it's supposed to be used as support for the teaching."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Hornet View PostAmos 3:6 is teaching that God causes disaster. What about sin? Does God cause people to sin or does He just allow people to sin?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostEither I'm misunderstanding what the doctrine of "the ordination of all things" entails, or else I don't see how that verse is supposed to be strong support for the doctrine. To go from "God sends disasters to cities/God is the cause of disasters" to "God has ordained all things to be as they are, down to the smallest minutiae" seem to me to be quite a substantial leap.
Or I could simply be misreading the verse, and/or misunderstanding in what way it's supposed to be used as support for the teaching.
Amos 3:6 teaches that God brings about natural disasters, but it does not say that God brings about all things.
Ephesians 1:3-12 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory."
There is a phrase in the above passage that says, "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..." God is said to work all "things after the counsel of His will." This sounds like that God makes sure that everything happens according to His plan. Is it correct to say that God's plan includes both directly causing certain things and permitting certain things? If so, then God makes sure that everything happens according to His plan to directly cause something or to permit something.
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